1575 Elizabeth I sixpence - tooled, or just nicely struck?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by lordmarcovan, Jun 18, 2019.

  1. Mat

    Mat Ancient Coincoholic

    Coin looks fine to me, Rob.
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  3. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & avid numismatist Moderator

    Because I'm stupid. LOL

    No, seriously, this is one "unwritten rule" I tend to forget about from time to time (and really was mostly unaware of). That's the problem with unwritten rules. Twenty years ago, netiquette did not come naturally to me and had to be learned, after making many faux pas.

    Anyway, I see the wisdom in the unwritten rule, now that it is mentioned. And really, posting about this coin worked against my own interests as a potential bidder, but at the time, I was (and still am) truly interested in knowing if anyone else thought the incuse lines on Elizabeth's bodice looked unusual. And there was a time factor if I wanted to bid.

    Mea maxima culpa.

    I am certainly not accusing the auction firm of anything. This is literally a matter of curiosity. Has anyone seen any hammered silver coins of this period that were tooled to enhance detail? The portraits of Elizabethan coins can be notoriously weak. They're in much lower relief than the ancients we usually discuss here.
  4. Sallent

    Sallent Live long and prosper

    I can relate. Why did I end up spending $240 (including auction fees and shipping) on this $130 - $150 coin?

    L Thorius Balbus (2) (1).jpg

    "Somebody once told me the world is gonna roll me, I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed...."

    To this day it's probably not my finest auction moment ever. :bag::confused:
    TypeCoin971793, Ryro and Bing like this.
  5. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & avid numismatist Moderator

    At least you got a nice coin. I've got some nice coins I overpaid for. Better to overpay on a nice coin than a nasty one, right?
  6. Mike Thorne

    Mike Thorne Well-Known Member

    I think you're being unduly suspicious about the coin. I don't see any signs of "enhancement" of details. If you're really concerned, purchase only certified coins. They'll probably cost more.
  7. Mike Thorne

    Mike Thorne Well-Known Member

    If that's your worst purchase, you've been remarkably fortunate!
    Magnus87, Roman Collector and Sallent like this.
  8. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & avid numismatist Moderator

    I often do, but I submit some raw coins as well, and would rather not have "details" grades from PCGS. This is the reason for the question.

    I was not questioning the authenticity or appeal of the coin at all. Merely wondering about the TPG grading odds. Perhaps I should have been more clear about that in the OP.

    While people on the Ancients board are not the "go-to" folks for questions about TPG gradeability, they are good at recognizing things like subtle tooling. Hence the question being posted here, and not on World Coins.

    You see, It pays to do some due diligence before TPG submission, if you want straight-graded material and not "details" grades.

    If I may digress for a moment on that topic, I just got the news that my Reigate Hoard groat had a pleasant outcome.
    Nicholas Molinari and Theodosius like this.
  9. Edessa

    Edessa Supporter! Supporter

    That is an outstanding Groat, thanks for posting. I thought the Sixpence went for a reasonable price. In my recent experience, trying to find a decent Elizabeth portrait on a coin with nice surfaces for less than $200 is tough.
    jamesicus likes this.
  10. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & avid numismatist Moderator

    Looks like this Lizzie sixpence went for $220 sans fee.

    Considering the max bid amount I had asked my intermediary to place on my behalf, it seems probable that this one might be coming to live with me before too long.
    Edessa and Ryro like this.
  11. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter**

    Talking about Lizzie I, here is a penny of hers. Notice the detail on the dress.

    This is a tiny coin, about the size of a silver 3 center. Amazing the engraver could put this much detail into such a tiny coin.

    Elizabeth I penny OBV3n better - 1.jpg Elizabeth I penny REV1n - 1.jpg
    Andres2, Edessa, lordmarcovan and 2 others like this.
  12. lordmarcovan

    lordmarcovan Eclectic & avid numismatist Moderator

    One dewy, foggy morning in November of 2013, I was on my knees in a fallow potato field in Little Bromley, Essex, looking down at the clump of muddy clay in my hand, from which a tiny hammered silver coin glistened.

    When I saw the devices on it, I knew it was a postmedieval silver penny straight away. I immediately assumed it was a Lizzie, like your coin there.


    It turned out to be later- a 1641-43 Charles I penny with a weak portrait. Such tiny coins!


    Someone else in my detecting group did in fact find an Elizabeth I penny on the other side of the field that same morning. And I dug a 1730 farthing, too. The field in question had reportedly produced several Celtic gold staters on previous visits by the club.
    Theodosius, Edessa, Eduard and 2 others like this.
  13. Cucumbor

    Cucumbor Dombes collector Supporter

    Nice acquisition @lordmarcovan !
    You will appreciate it for a long time I bet

    Here's my sixpence


  14. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    This sixpence should look strange to the collector of hammered silver. Does it to you? I know our British specialists will recognize this but I'm asking those NOT expert in the period if the coin looks strange, fake or anything else. When I first saw the OP coin, I expected it was one of these but the date was wrong and my level of study on these coins is way too small to explain away what LM was seeing. Experts: Give the beginners here a moment before explaining this one. This poor example is dented.
    Andres2, Edessa and SeptimusT like this.
  15. SeptimusT

    SeptimusT Well-Known Member

    Not my area, but I think I see what stands out on Doug’s example. Didn’t realize those existed. I’ll let someone more interested in the period see if they notice :p
  16. jamesicus

    jamesicus Supporter! Supporter

    My example has a weak portrait strike:

    Bing likes this.
  17. Dougmeister

    Dougmeister Well-Known Member

    Bonus points for making me Google what "hectoring" means.
  18. Edessa

    Edessa Supporter! Supporter

    Congrats, LM. That is a beautiful Elizabeth Sixpence that you won't regret buying. I never regret bidding on beautiful coins.
  19. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter I dig ancient coins...

    Nice coin. While I don't think talking about a particular coin in a live auction is a good idea, I see no problem with mentioning the existence of an auction that is happening, with no specific focus on any individual coins.

    I was called out once for mentioning the existence of a Frank Robinson auction, as if just talking about an ongoing auction would increase the bid price on the coins. I suppose this is possible, but it seems unlikely.
  20. SeptimusT

    SeptimusT Well-Known Member

    Since no one ever bit, I think the piece Doug posted is an early example of milled coinage. Still want to get a coin from this period, even if it isn’t my era.
    Orielensis, dougsmit and TheFinn like this.
  21. willieboyd2

    willieboyd2 First Class Poster

    The OP's sixpence looks fine to me.

    My Elizabeth sixpence is not in as good shape as his:

    England Silver Sixpence 1561 Elizabeth I

    Obverse: Crowned bust of Elizabeth facing left with a rose behind her head
    (Elizabeth by the Grace of God, England, France and Ireland, Queen)

    Reverse: Shield with arms (lions and fleurs-de-lis) and long cross
    Text: POSVI DEV ADIVTOREM MEV (I have made God my Helper)

    Tower Mint mintmark, a downward arrow on obverse at top right
    Size: 27 mm, weight: 2.75 gm

    I bought my sixpence as one Elizabeth sixpence has a very peculiar connection to California:


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