Pamp/ Credit Suisse Gold Bars vs. Cold Bullion Coins?? - grams vs oz??

Focus, my only objective is to protect others from your bad advice, which you don't even follow yourself. It is easy to say that you will resell 1g novelty bars for far more than melt value any time you want. In reality, the 1g novelty items that are now somewhat popular will be the junk gold of the future and most likely sell at or slightly below melt value. They will never command the premium that a 1/10 ounce AGE has. They have no collector base and no investor base. The people currently buying them are being ripped off. The sooner they realize that, the better.

 

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:thumb: Being a hot-head myself, the phrase "You can lead a horse to water....." comes to mind.

Samon will understand the situation a bit better after he tries to sell the novelty bits. Some of us need to experience the pain to learn. I know it seems to be the way I have to learn lessons.

A bit of patience really goes a long way to not losing money with bullion.
1oz of many novelty bits does not equal 1oz of real bullion.
A look around ebay taught me that.

 

How do you know it will sell below melt value? You don't. The same way I don't know that it will continue to sell at a higher premium. But what the evidence shows in the past is that the smaller the piece you have the higher the premium you pay, that's no matter if it's a bullion coin or bar. Answer me this honestly then.. hypothetically speaking, if gold jumps up to $2500 an ounce do you not believe the more fractional a piece is the more desirable it is due to the fact that the everyday person can still afford it? Yes I know we can look on the other side of that and find that if gold drops back down to $500 an ounce then the piece will also take a hit in its premium as well, but the last time I checked that's the risk you take in investing.

So just for my own understanding, you're saying that you think the premium is just a fluke and that it will drop back down below it's value of gold?

 

If I seem hot headed, then I'm sorry. And yes I agree I don't really have any experience in any of this. The thing I do have more knowledge in is business and in a business standpoint most of this isn't making any sense. I agree it sucks that somethings have higher premiums, but the reality is that they do. Clothes, designer jewelry, cars, homes (depending on location), etc. The thing is that when you buy at a premium you sell back at a premium more than what other comparable material items sell for. I was told from a local coin store quote on quote "the smaller the piece you have, the higher premium it normally has", but then on here it's a completely different tale of what everyones trying to preach, which I don't have a problem with agreeing on, which I don't have a problem agreeing on (I'm stubborn but not that stubborn) but I'd like more than just being told :"it's going to sell under melt value." Ok well then how do you know that?

 

Yes. That's exactly correct. This is the history of these things. Silver rounds and junk silver sell for discounts compared to ASEs. Products from non-goverment mints such as Franklin Mint sell for discounts. Some people believe that even ASEs and AGEs will lose their current premiums, and if this happens, other gold and silver products will fall even more. Nobody can prove this to you. There is only history to go by. The lesson is that if you pay more than melt value, and there isn't some numismatic value to an item, the premium will disappear in time. In your example, if gold jumps to $2,500 the everyday person will be a seller, not buyer of gold and the 1g Pamp bars will lose the small following it currently has.

 

Alright, I suppose that does make some sense. Was really trying to get to get to the barebones of things so thanks for sticking through my annoying nagging

 

how can you know for sure what the dealer was actually saying? was he meaning the premium he charges is higher? or the premium he will pay is higher?

Also I don't think you can actually use a dealer as solid ground for information...you need to look at the rest of the world...he could be a bad dealer charging a huge premium and saying that the product deserves it and any new person to bullion or coins might just believe him cause he's been in the business...I think a cross section of what is going on all over is a better indicator then only dealers...and no I'm not talking bad about dealers but they got their own world and something they are wrong too cause they are people.

 

He meant premiums in general, As in 1oz of something, let's saying like the krugerrand, will sell only a slight premium compared to if you wanted to pick up 1/10s or 1/4s which will have higher premiums because they are fractional.

 

*double post*

 

This may be a bad example so correct me if I'm wrong..... A lot of people paid a high premium in the real estate market a few years ago expecting to find a sucker whenever they got ready to sell....many of them ended up with houses they couldn't afford valued at waaaay below its actual value which forced them into foreclosure or into paying for a house they won't break even on in 10-15 years....

 

Be very careful not to put too much value on what one or two coin dealers "preach". As you get more experience, I bet you find that some data you receive is self serving by some and selfishly motivated by others.

There is a horrible TV gold scam going on right now that is picking off those that can't/won't do their own sub-surface research. Makes me sad to hear some of their stories. I tried to share some of my education with a few local buyers of these TV scams, but they were so stubborn that it was a waste of time. Some people don't want to learn, they just want to be right.

 

that's what I was thinking about said dealer or dealers...I mean seriously they are not in the business to help out new people...and no I'm not saying they are around to scam people either...but they need to make a living and some dealers or "sellers" any on TV think they need a mil or 2 a year to scrap by...watch out for those premiums...it might be all you can afford (1 gram bars) by going off of spot at $1200.50/oz you are getting $38.60 worth of gold for say $50-55/gram and that being 31.1 to a troy ounce $1555-$1710.50/troy oz so what if the premium evaporated you would need gold to hit around the above posted price to break even...personally I would rather wait and buy something with less premium on it and get more bang for my buck...especially if I only have a few to spare...investing is about using the least amount of currency to get the most potential so you can get more for less work...least I think so...also it doesn't hurt to hedge it.

one of my favorite quotes but I forget where it's from "always be thinking about what you can do each day to get a little bit more ahead in what your doing"

Alex

 

He wasn't talking about any specific coin or bullion, he meant fractional pieces in general. But I agree that if the premium tanked, you'd take a big hit.

 

Wait! You mean I can't trust Pat Boone ???

He runs his own record company, Pat's Gold - The Gold Label and he's an Recording Industry Association of America Gold Album recording artist! He's a golden oldie and you're telling me I can't buy gold from old Pat Boone???

What's this worldacomin' to I ask ya'?




He's a spokesman for SwissAmerica

 

oh c'mon krispy what did pat boone do? it would be like trying to say G gordon liddy was involved in the watergate scandal and was sentanced to 20 years in jail...then said sentance was commuted by president carter and now he sells gold for www.RoslandCapital.com ... seriously... I think your just a conspiracy nut... you can trust both pat boone and g gordon liddy...they are NOT! dirtbags at all... :whistle:

 

lol!

 

I think this forum has gotten off topic. I was hopeful when I first found it that it would address the fundamental advantages (if any) of dealing with oz vs grams. Obviously a 1 gram bar is so tiny you are going to pay a lot more per weight than a larger bar, and obviously .9999 purity is .9999 purity no matter how you slice it.

Based on https://store.nwtmint.com/index.php?mod=advanced_search&searchtype=preset&preset=aubullion&page=ALL
Currently, the most cost effective 1/4 oz coin is the Chinese Gold Panda at $379.97 per.
The 5 gram Swiss PAMP at $245.27 is going for the same exact ratio as the 10 gram at $490.24, so that immediately peaked my interest.

I did the price comparison, and the 5 gram PAMP is the exact same price per weight as the 1/4 oz Panda, assuming that 12 Troy oz = 373 gram, despite the fact that it is considerably smaller (same bang for your buck in a smaller investment).

Obviously, the benefit of going larger is the better price per weight, so these 5 gram bars look like a steal. My concern is that the exchange rates deal in oz, so having grams requires that you are dealing with someone who knows how to convert it appropriately. In a worse case scenario, you might be bartering with a simpleton. I'm not concerned with collectibility, just the raw value of the base metal.

I'm trying to decide if it's worth going with the 1/4 oz Panda to get the same improved price per weight based on the possibility that it might be easier to resell. I mean, melted gold is melted gold at the end of the day, so I figure why not go with the PAMPs since then you can get more pieces to deal with, but I want to weigh all the pros and cons before pulling the trigger. Any additional insight would be appreciated.

[math used for conclusions]
5 grams * 12 / 373 = 0.1608 oz @ $245.27
1/4 oz = 0.25 oz @ $379.97

.25 / .1608 = 1.55
379.97 / 245.27 = 1.55

 

I found 2 local dealers that could beat the web sites pricing, one of which was only a 5% markup. Moral of the story, shop around! I decided I like oz better than grams for not having to do extra numerical conversion to determine cost as well as aesthetics. If anyone has any other reasons why oz or gram is better regardless of manufacturer I'd be glad to hear it.

 

I think it depends on how much you really have to invest since gr. of Gold are less expensive
Then oz. you can go a little at a time plus it will add up just the same

 

mpcusa, I think it ultimately boils down to the individual dealer, and what sort of markup they are charging. If you can get a smaller gram piece for the same markup percentage then I would agree, although in many cases the more you buy the more bang for your buck you get. I just wasn't sure if maybe there were underlying reasons behind which weight method was preferred regardless of size.