sorting my 90% junk for numismatic value?

I do not have the ability to post Pics, so I did not want to start a new thread. Since 90% silver is the topic here. I thought I would share the news on the latest arrive. Hope that is OK.

A CT member sold me some 90%, and WOW. I was advised that the coins were worn, but instead I received so many nice surprises (about 178$ including shipping).

1963P Proof Mint set -COA included with original envelope;
1909 Barber half, quarter, and dime, (all nice condition);
1884 Morgan (nice detail) - Liberty in hair very clear, wheat stems, and floral all crisp;
1944 Walking Liberty Half - very nice - lovely folds in cape and skirt, face worn;
1943 War Nickel;
1964 Rossevelt (2)
Many Mercury Dimes (96): 1916 (1), 1918 (1),1936 (1), 1937 (1), 1939 (2),1940 (2), 1941 (12); and the rest from 1942, 1943, 1944, 1945. 2 with worn dates.


Enjoy

 

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orenthal,

I have been asking myself the same question as you have posted.
I see raw uncertified & ungraded 90% silver coins selling for both under and over spot. Some are selling significantly over spot and that is even without it being a semi-key or key date. The one thing I could determine from the successful resale of what some would call junk silver is:
"PRESENTATION".
So I decided to run a "clean or not to clean experiment" on coins I have determined had no numismatic value over melt.
One very important factor about reselling coins that have been cleaned by you is:
"HONESTY".
Tastefully let potential buyers know that the coin has been gently cleaned.

 

Related article.....

http://www.ocala.com/article/20100526/ARTICLES/5261007/1001/NEWS01?p=1&tc=pg&tc=ar

 

Good article.

 

The question was posted for clarity. Silver surfer's post that followed did indeed provide that clarity I was seeking. I had considered a PM, but hestitated, because if I was unclear then maybe someone else might be too.

I try to keep an open mind. Sometimes my lack of experience and open mindedness combine into what might strike another as ridiculus, or perhaps be darn right absurd. That was not my intention, thou I can understand how my post read by itself would lead to the opening statement of "absurb/ridiculous".

I did get alot out of this particular post, primarily from the topic of eye appeal. Sometimes a coin just has a sharp connection to a fond memory, or individual.

I have meet people that are purists. It is nice here in the CT community, as most seem to be a nice blend of both.

 

I really think the absurd/ridiculous comment was aimed at me for saying that cleaned coins contain no numismatic value. While some do, you won't get the same price for a MS62 standing liberty quarter, vs a would be MS62 had someone not cleaned it. And you will find that the price difference is rather absurb/ridiculous. A 1918 MS62 Standing liberty quarter goes for about $200. My guess is that a cleaned 1918 standing liberty quarter with MS62 details will probably sell for $20-$30. That is definitely more than melt, but not anywhere near the $200 for the uncleaned one.

Of course, if you went on Ebay and sold the cleaned coin to an inexperienced buyer, you just might get the $200. But that doesn't mean the coin is worth $200.

 

Are you saying that you feel it is wrong to sell cleaned coins that are clearly advertised as "cleaned" ?

 

Absolutely not. If you want to sell a coin that has been cleaned and is clearly labeled as so, then it is up to the buyer if he wants to buy it knowing that it has been cleaned. As I said in the above post, you could probably get $20-$30 for a cleaned 1918 standing liberty quarter with MS62 details, which is definitely above melt price.

As I seem to be digging a hole further and further the more I comment on this thread, this is all I have to say about it. Simply put, cleaned coins aren't worth as much, and sometimes not much means "junk silver" prices. Which is why you sometimes find these coins in the junk bin of some dealers.

P.S. If I had my way, the price of coins would be solely based on the details and rarity of the coin, cleaned or not. It really irks me to think you are buying a nice coin only to find out later that it was cleaned and isn't worth as much. But, this is the industry standards. I didn't make them! But, I do have to understand that this is how the standard is applied and I have to live by it. To do otherwise would lead to a lot of bad purchases.

 

No worries.
According to your avatar , you at the very least have great taste in guitar masters

 

Erroneous Hyperbole

I find the referenced article, prior to your statement, to be tripe, consisting of numerous statements which are contradicted by facts. One having a reasonable understanding of chemistry/physics, would know that some elements of our atmosphere and body chemistry have significantly greater potential for coin surface destruction than reasonable cleaning agents. I can post examples of permanently etched finger-prints on "BU" coins. Reasonable cleaning solutions/processes are considerably less destructive than "bag rub" and "bag marks" which are common on 19th century coins, so I've observed dealers "cleaning" the coins prior to submission, informed to be a practice in the "community". The "cleaning" when properly implemented, removes the objectionable appearance naturally generated by handling techniques, and is often undetected. It appears that TPG occasionally detect the removal process, and either note the condition, certify without a definite grade, certify as **, or "body-bag". A brief search of eBay will show hundreds of these coins certified by "first tier" TPG. A more extensive search will probably reveal, I would guess thousands of 18th, 19th, and 20th century certified "cleaned" coins, which are appealing to many knowledgeable collectors. These coins often command great premiums, relative to the less than bullion value that self-serving dealers advocate. They publish articles similar to that referenced, advocating that "cleaned coins" are worthless, while often the "community" submits, or sells same. To state that the "top tier" TPG would only have certified "vintage coins" of exceptional rarity, with a long past "cleaning", and that they become undesirable/valueless, is ludicrous. My statement is evidenced by the 20th Century coin, certified by PCGS, in eBay #120574232220, currently having bids of ~10000 times its' bullion value. I could spend days posting similar examples, but I believe that one given example belies the essence of negative cleaning arguments, and reference articles.

 

Dealers or not paying much for anything but rarities. Coins that can be moved quickly.

The economy is bad, & most of their sales are gold and silver.

Although my sets of coins were not "junk" , or anything close to junk, several dealers would only pay spot for them, plus maybe $12 for the keys. He took one minute observing five complete Dansco albums. Well, I wasnt desperate. So I will sit on them if I have to.

Another note, they dont care if their gems, cause nobody buys that garbage.
Then i look at a 2007P dime that I needed with a price tag of $1. He ended up giving me the coin. Oh well, bad times I guess.

CLAW

 

i now have the 2011 Red Book. do i also need to the Cherrypickers' Guide for searching pocket change, hoarded copper cents, 90% silver and soforth or is the red book adequate?

http://www.numismedia.com/fmv/fmv.shtml seems to be a good source of mostly the same info (assuming it's accurate). i like that it gives prices for everything all the way down to G4 condition, where red book often only goes down to MS-65 or VF-40 or whatever for more recently minted coins. is there a better free onlione source than that one?

also the numismedia.com prices are more realistic for coins that have values that are dramatically affected by the price of silver or whatever (such as the franklin halves, which have bullion value plus at least a little numismatic premium).

so do you guys just stick with the red book for this type of treasure hunting?

thanks!

 

'Cleaned coins carry NO, NO, NO numismatic value, regardless of how unique or rare they are.'

​

I believe I understand your position but its not practical. We dont live in a perfect world. If that somewhat elitist philosophy works for you so be it, for the rest of us with less than unlimited collecting budgets we will continue to enjoy our less than perfect coins.

 

Personally speaking , I am glad I got the Cherrypickers' Guide as well as the RedBook. I also got the ANA Grading Standards book. If you are going to be looking for error & variety US coins other than cents & nickels , I would suggest getting volume2 of the Cherrypickers' Guide as well.

 

Relative Values For Cleaned/Uncleaned Coins

The statement espoused is unborn true by fact, when offerings are presented to unbiased consumers, and merely a myth generated by a self-serving group of individuals, seemingly having an agenda of personal gain. "cleaned" coins often command great premiums, relative to the less than bullion value that greedy dealers offer. These same dealers often offer relatively junk coins, overgraded by supposedly premium TPG, similar to the following attachments (the "green label" ms63 premium overgraded uncleaned coin comes complete with lack-luster appearance, "bag rub", rim nicks, field chatter, gouges, scratches, and copper spots):
http://www.cointalk.com/attachments/70922d1268706361t-06d-62.jpg
http://www.cointalk.com/attachments/70923d1268706408t-97s-63.jpg
After more than 10 years of trying to determine what the average consumer desires, placing "top tier" certified ugly "natural" coins in auction with a starting bid of "CDN bid minus 10%", and cleaned coins of the same type/era/grade, I've substantiated that you are in the majority. I have those same certified coins, imaging some in past posts, as I never even receive an initial bid. The cleaned coins always sold when listed with similar pricing. I know from dealer communications that a significant portion of coins are cleaned before being submitted for certification.
A definite proof of my pleadings is shown by the relative sale of an proclaimed "cleaned" coin of a lower grade in eBay #120574232220, versus that of a higher grade "uncleaned" coin in eBay #180513411928. The coin auctions closed after the 'Cleaned coins carry NO, NO, NO numismatic value, regardless of how unique or rare they are.' statement was posted, with the "cleaned" coin selling at greater than 15000 times bullion value, outpricing the identical date/type higher grade "uncleaned" coin, closing ~1 hour apart in the same sales venue. I suggest one consider the source when digesting unsubstantiated arguments. I believe your response to be appropriate, and probably more elegant than mine. I trust you'll accept my humble substantiative evidence. :high5:

 

You may want to throw aside any mercs and walkers

 

What Do You Think?

Do you think that this partially "cleaned" 1916-D currently offered in eBay #26061450988 for a starting bid of $3200 might sell for a greater amount than bullion value? I'd probably finish the job before offering!!


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Do You Think It Is Worthless (or worth less)?

Do you think that this "cleaned" 1921-D currently offered in eBay #370348270664 for a starting bid of $6000 might sell for a greater amount than bullion value?

 

There does appear to be a market for cleaned coins that commands a premium over melt value. Extremely old coins have virtually all been cleaned at some point and it does not affect the value at all. And many of the experts here can tell you the proper way to clean one. Go figure ?

 

You make good points, but would the 1916 D dime or the 1921 D half dollar be found in the junk bin of your dealer.

If it is, kudos to you for finding it. But the comments I made were for those that find "rare" coins in a dealers junk bin. I'm not saying dealers are perfect, but if the coin appears in the junk bin, there probably is a good reason for it being there.

Likewise, the 1916 D dime would sell for that price if it were in F-12 condition. The one you have posted definitely has better than F-12 details, so I take it the diminished price is due to the cleaning.

I don't see any bids for that walker yet. I can post a modern Lincoln commemorative for $2000, doesn't mean its worth that.