Featured Canadian Sovereign

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by serdogthehound, Jul 28, 2020.

  1. serdogthehound

    serdogthehound Well-Known Member

    08DF9F4C-6F9B-4A74-8EDC-9CDF2F04F006.jpeg There is a trend from a few days ago talking about US collectors growing up wanting a Spanish Milled Dollar and the excitement of finally getting on. It is after all the first coin in the Red Book. Growing up in Canada I had a similar experience with Carltons. I don’t remember what was at the start of that book but I do remember what was the last regular issue... The Sovereign.

    It was a strange coin. Gold. Different design (Benedetto Pistrucci fanatic St. George). Different head (Barehead v Crown head on coins of the day) . Mint Marked. Strange denomination (Pounds). Rare (~600k total)

    As a Kid I can remember going up the Eaton’s coin counter in Pacific Centre Mall on Robison Street in Vancouver and window shop them. Sovereign were out of my price range but I have some proof sets and a Carson City Morgen I got from them. They had really friendly and knowledgeable staff its sad that the days of Department store coin counters are gone . It is now a Nordstrom and I miss the coin counter. I always wanted one.

    I just got mine
    First A bit of History

    St. George
    The legend of St. George and the Dragon has long been part of European history. St. George association with England and the British Royal Family dates from the time of Edward III, one of Englands greatest monarchs. Edward wanted a military saint over the saintly but weak Edward the Confessor. Edward also founded the Order of The Garter the badge of which is St.George slaying the dragon.

    The Sovereign

    During the great recoinage of 1816 Britain Gold standard gold coin was change from the historic guinea. The new sovereign was slightly less valuable (20 v 21 Shillings) and was one pound. Over the course of the 19th century the sovereign became one of the worlds standard gold coins for trade and for daily commerce though out the British Empire. It was minted in London and at Branch mints in Australia.

    The Canada Dollar
    As the Canadian Provinces moved toward responsible goverment the question of currency arose . The Imperial Government in London favoured a single currency for the empire the Pound based on the Gold Sovereign. The Provinces favoured decimalized currency and generally favoured linking in the the American Eagle. This was ultimately approved in all provinces save Nova Scotia which had a different dollar until 1870 . The value of a Gold Sovereign in that system with $4.8666 and it was legal tender to that amount. America gold coins being valued at par made up most of the gold used by Canadians in commerce and by Banks backing currency.

    A Canadian Mint?

    Early Canada coins were struck by the Royal Mint in London or by the Heaton Mint in Birmingham. Following gold rushes in British Columbia and the Klondike. The Canadian Parliament pushed for the creation of a Canadian Mint either in British Columbia or Ottawa. There was some question as to if it would be an independent mint or a branch of the royal mint. For constitutional reasons the Ottawa Mint was opened as a branch mint under imperial statue.

    The Ottawa Mint

    The Ottawa Mint was opened in 1908. Since that time Canada has produced all its coinage domestically with a single Identifiable exception(some dime minted in Philadelphia with US collars). Being a branch mint Ottawa had to strike on request sovereigns on request. This coin did not circulate in Canada and were generally used for export when companies need to pay suppliers in pounds. Prior to 1911 all sovereign were struck with imported gold afterwords the Mint refined it own gold as it continues to do to this day.

    Canadian Sovereigns

    All Canadian Sovereigns are scarce. Most are rare. And the 1916-C is a great rarity. Of the 7 mint the issued sovereign in the classic era Ottawa stuck the fewest by far with each other mint have years that top the total Canadian Mintage of around 600,000. Canadian Sovereigns are identified by a C mint mark below the St. George. Some examples show circulation which likely took place outside of Canada. Canada struck tribute coins during the 2010’s to celebrate the Sovereign this are NOT in anyway Sovereign and or ugly.

    So without further delay here is mine. It is 1911 which was the most common year by far but I also think it is kinda cool that it was likely the first year made with Canadian Gold. NGC MS 62 Ex Heritage Weekly World Coins July 23 2020
    895721B1-78D3-425B-97F8-4961870C9947.jpeg 19DA260A-62FF-4680-B5F9-C18318854655.jpeg CB4A515F-61F4-4852-A873-C55714E9BA7B.jpeg
    Now that I have this I think I may go for the Mint set since this is more or less the Key Coin. I am excited to own what could be call “Canada’s First Gold Coin.
     
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  3. Lawtoad

    Lawtoad Well-Known Member

    Very nice sovereign. I did not know until I looked it up that there was a tiny "C" above the date for the Ottawa Mint. Learn something new every day. Thank you for sharing.
     
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  4. Zonker

    Zonker Active Member

    You've started down a very interesting road. Collecting sovereigns the world's most recognized and trusted gold coin during the height of the British Empire is an extremely satisfying collection - if you go that route. There are so many ways to collect sovereigns - much more than any other coin from any other country because it had been minted for over 500 years (over 200 years for the Modern sovereign) and it was issued in seven mints and five countries. There are so many sets that you can build.

    Good luck and enjoy your treasure.
     
  5. Zonker

    Zonker Active Member

    The Bombay mint produced sovereigns in 1918 for about eight months and surpassed the total output of Ottawa (all years combined). You can find nice examples of most of the dates at reasonable prices. The 1916, 1913, 1908 will be expensive - especially in the better grades.
     
  6. Rob Woodside

    Rob Woodside Member

    [​IMG]
    1908 C Sovereign, Where was the metal mined?
    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/1908-c-sovereign-where-was-the-metal-mined.322261/#post-3178444

    I finally figured out the Coin Fora and found where I should have posted the link above and discovered serdogthehound's great post. Thanks!

    My only disagreement with serdogthehound is his contention that the gold used in Edward Sovs was imported to Canada.

    The problem was the London Mint assumed that local refiners would deliver pure gold to the Ottawa Branch as happened in London. There were no Canadian refiners, so there was a scramble to get the gold together as recounterd in Striking Impressions, Haxby's history of the Canadian Mint, page 83, "Shipments of rough (unrefined) gold began to arrive at the mint in late 1908. The amounts were small- only 219 Troy ounces by the end of 1908. In the absence of a refinery the gold was handed over to the Assay Department for treatment". This was enough for the 636 sovereigns minted in 1908 from Canadian gold. The Assay Department continued to supply the refined Canadian gold until the mint finally had its new refinery in 1911.
     
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  7. Zonker

    Zonker Active Member

    I agree with Rob, it would have been very impracticable for the gold to be shipped from London during the early years of the Canadian mint. London would have shipped the dies, however.
     
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  8. Rob Woodside

    Rob Woodside Member

    Well finally after a cold shoulder from the Royal Canadian Mint who never bothered to reply to my question, twice, I gave up.

    Then risking a 7 day free trial to gain access to archives I found this

    https://www.newspapers.com/browse/canada/quebec/montreal/the-gazette_8130
    (that's supposed to link to the Montreal Gazette, 4 Decemeber, 1908, pg 10)

    "Half a dozen gold bricks from the Dr. Reddick Larder Lake gold mines, aggregating between 60 and 70 ounces, have been brought to the Ottawa branch of the Royal Mint by Dr. Reddick and Lt.-Col. S. M.. Rogers to be minted into sovereigns. The coins will be the first gold ones to be made In Canada, and the gold the first Canadian metal of that kind to be minted. There are no dies for 'the stamping of Canadian coins at the Mint at present, but the Imperial Government, when the Institution was opened, granted permission to the authorities to mint English sovereign pieces until December 31, 1908.. The expiration of the time has almost come and the consignment of gold sent to the Mint yesterday will be the only English coins of Canadian metal made In Canada. Dr. Reddick states that the value of the six bricks Is about $1,600, A feature of the new coins will be the small "c" to be placed under the King's head to show that the coins were made In Canada."

    So indeed the 1908 Soverign was made with Canadian gold from Larder Lake as the photographed giant sovereign at Virginiatown says. My problem was that Kerr Addison Mining Co. came much later and it was the Reddick Mining Company that sent the gold to Ottawa in 1908.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
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  9. potty dollar 1878

    potty dollar 1878 Well-Known Member

    Nice sovereign wish I had one love them but a little bit above what I can afford.
     
    serdogthehound likes this.
  10. Zonker

    Zonker Active Member

    This is great information. Thank you for posting it. It will be useful in my research
     
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  11. serdogthehound

    serdogthehound Well-Known Member

    That Montreal Gazette is interesting. It is a bit strange that they got the mint mark location wrong. I think the gold must have been right. Still 1911 I think is special since it is mint refined gold which is cool given that the Royal Canadian Mint is one of greatest refiners in the world today.

    I guess I will just have to get the 1908 one day (now that is a dream coin the first gold coin to come out of one of the worlds great bullion mints :) )

    Anyways regardless I am happy to own this coin along with my 1913 Ten dollar gold . Now just 2 more pierces for my type set , ok 3 the Newfoundland 2 dollar gold is just far to cool not to include
     
  12. Mister T

    Mister T Active Member

    I vaguely recall reading that they had generally low mintages because it was cheaper to get gold coined in America though I don't have a reference for that - does that sound familiar?
     
  13. Rob Woodside

    Rob Woodside Member

    The inconspicuous mint marks for the Australian minted sovereigns appeared below St George, S in 1871 for Sydney, M in 1872 for Melbourne and P in 1899 for Perth. One might have supposed that they would use an "O" for Ottawa and place it below St George where the others occurred. The 1908 Gazette article was written as the gold was delivered and probably not yet given to the Assay Department to refine, so no one had yet seen a Canadian sovereign. At least they got the "C" right. That started a trend with I for Bombay in 1918 and SA for Pretoria in 1923.

    There was probably more US gold coin circulating in Canada than Canadian gold dollars and sovereigns in the early 20th century. During WW I it was unpatriotic and aided the enemy when gold coins were used in the Empire, so production was halted and coins melted. This left the London 1917 and Canadian 1916 as the rareest of sovereigns. Churchill said his greatest mistake (Not Gallipoli!) was returning to the gold standard in 1925. Soon economic forces caused 90 million sovereigns to be melted into gold bars in 1930 and 1931 and the abdonment of the Gold Standard in 1931. Soon the US was also in ecomomic difficulty and followed suit on June 5 1933 when Roosvelt's executive order confiscated and ended circulating US gold coins.

    It always seemed strange to me that a country felt itself so wealthy, it could afford to coin its wealth and let it ware away to nothing.

    References:
    https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/fdr-takes-united-states-off-gold-standard
    A History of the Sovereign Chief Coin of the World, Kevin Clancy, Royal Mint Museum, 2015
    The Gold Sovereign, Michael A. Marsh, Jubilee Ed, Cambridge, 2002
     
  14. Zonker

    Zonker Active Member

    Regarding the Australian mint marks - it's likely that the decision to use the city initial instead of country was because at the time Australia was made up of six separate colonies and did not become a commonwealth until 1901. Also at the time, both Sydney and Melbourne were competing to become the first mint so the city mint mark made sense. The Royal mint most likely only intended to open a single mint in Canada, India and South Africa, so the country mint mark made sense.

    Re: This left the London 1917 and Canadian 1916 as the rareest of sovereigns.

    I suspect you meant during the war years. If not, you have to consider the 1920 Sydney and the 1923 South Africa as being rarer than either the 1917 or 1916 C.
     
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  15. Rob Woodside

    Rob Woodside Member

    Thanks Zonker. I left out the word "some" as in 'some of the rareest' sovs. I think you are right about the assignment of mintmarks.
     
  16. Zonker

    Zonker Active Member

    No problem, that's what I thought you meant - as I know you have your facts straight.
     
  17. serdogthehound

    serdogthehound Well-Known Member

    That maybe true. I think the bigger factor was the Canada had the same gold standard as the US so American Gold was better for banks backing notes (ie a Half Eagle at $5 v a Sovereign a $4.86333).
     
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