Featured Nemausus Crocs & that time Agrippa got punched in the nose/Agrippa had his face between some DDs

You may be modest, your croc isn't

Q

 

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All I'm able to say in response to your questions is the following:

1. To the best of my knowledge, all the relevant authorities agree that the coin was a dupondius.

2. Some authorities, like Sear, describe the coin as brass. Others describe it as bronze. To me, some of the examples I've seen do look like they could be brass. Others, not so much.

3. The P P (Pater Patriae) was singular, and was added after Augustus was awarded that honorary title by the Senate in 2 BCE, supposedly in connection with the dedication of the Augustan Forum.

 

@dougsmit, I enjoyed seeing all of your examples. A couple of comments: First. Sear and other authorities generally divide these coins into four types, not three, by dividing your first category into two groups: the original coin (weighing something around 16 g.), and its first re-issue circa 16 BCE, supposedly in connection with a visit by Augustus to Gaul (weighing approximately 12.5 g., but otherwise very similar). You didn't mention the weight of your first example, so I can't tell which group it belongs to.

Second, the authorities are divided on the question of whether the wreath Augustus wears beginning with Type III (your second group) is a laurel wreath or an oak wreath. RPC and Sear's RCV both identify it as a laurel wreath. RIC (carried over into OCRE) and Sear's earlier Greek Imperial Coins catalog both identify it as an oak wreath. Usually the two kinds of wreaths aren't that difficult to tell apart, and the one on my example looks more like an oak wreath to me, but it's not so easy to identify the wreath as one or the other on a number of examples I've seen.

Finally, another easy way to tell the last group from the others, besides the addition of the P P, is the fact that the tip of the palm tree leans left for the first time, instead of to the right.

 

I think yours is a class I, like the second one that dougsmit is showing with the teeth of the crocodile’s upper jaw turned outside, or an early class II. I can't see the detail of the crocodile's teeth on your picture

Regarding the date, according to Ulrich Werz https://niedersachsen.academia.edu/UlrichWerz/Papers

who in his paper “Die Kleingeldversorgung augusteischer Zeit in Gallien und Germanien - Überlegungen zu den Kleinerzen aus dem römischen Marschlager von Wilkenburg“ writes about the Aes from Nemausus and Lyon:

In the last quarter of the 1st century BC Augustus reorganized the monetary system. This reorganization started in 20 BC and ended in 9 AD. Not all coins were struck continuously every year. Sestertii and Dupondii were struck from 18 BC. Two years later, in 16 BC, As were struck. The smallest unit, the quadrans was only struck in 9/8 BC and 5/4 BC.
In particular the first series from Nemausus is dated between 12 and 8 BC and the second series between 8 and 3/2 BC (Ilish 1992). During Drusus campaign between 12 -8 BC coinage from the 1st series of Nemausus as well as the halved coins were representative for Aes circulation. With the campaigns from the 1st century AD the spectrum of the bronze coinage changes: the Nemausus coinage is replaced by the 1st Altar series from Lyon. This replacement is to be understood as a process over time. That explains why the Nemausus coinage almost disappeared at the end of the first decade of the first century.

This is my early class II that I have shared before in another thread:
Gallia, Nemausus
24 x 25 mm, 13.919 g

RIC 154 - 156; Sear 1728; RPC 522;

​

 

Thanks for those answers. By the way, I had never noticed the similarity between the crocodile and a war galley until you pointed it out. I'll have to remember that one.

 

The thought certainly isn't original with me or with others here who've mentioned it (such as @TIF), but I don't remember where I first read about the similarity -- which is rather obvious once someone points it out.

 

I was aware of this distinction but have not found a coin that heavy. Most like the cmezner coin quoted below seem in the middle.

My other one is 14.8g and answers the brass question. I don't know what they were called in their day but I use dupondius. The early specimen I showed in my first post is 13.3g. Weight ranges are to be expected on AE coins. I need to see the evidence that would make me force my coins up or down as if there was no gradual decline as is usual for coin issues.


BTW, many but not all of the early period coins show the NE of NEM as a ligature. The things were made for a long time and there are several variations along the way. Obviously there were several die cutters involved.

 

They don't make it easy by not having instructions. However, I was able to get mine working by purchasing an adapter so that I could hook it to my phone:


Then I downloaded an app that was user friendly so that I could view and take pics with my phone:


I hope this helps and you're able to use yours. My 4 yo has been having a blast doing extreme close ups on coins, the carpet... and even my head!

 

I think mine might not be working correctly, not really able to zoom.

 

Great post @Ryro! And the image of @TIF cracked me up

Mine has a hole in the center, on the obverse. An attempt to split it?

 

Interesting and informative post. I do not have a crocodile, alas, but I do have two examples of the PP countermark as mentioned in the OP.

That these appeared on the dupondii of Nemausus is news to me - so the examples below might be off-topic?

The two I have are on as/dupondius hosts (or imitatives). Compared to the abundant AVG countermark types, the PP seems to be somewhat scarcer, though not rare, I think. From what little information I could find, these PP's are from Pannonia. Again, not sure that would apply to the Nemausus dupondii.



Augustus Æ As / Dupondius Imperial Moneyer with
Pannonia c/m (1st C. A.D.)
AVGVSTVS [TRIB]VNIC [POTE]ST in three lines within oak wreath / [?]MSAN[?] around large SC.
(Uncertain attribution; possible Balkan imitative)
(7.16 grams / 25 mm)
Countermarks:
AVG, TICÆ obverse / P•P• and CAE reverse.

M. Pangerl Collection
75 (AVG),
90 (TICÆ)
81a (P.P.)
77c (CAE)




Augustus Æ As
Imperial Moneyer As with Pannonia c/m (1st C. A.D.)
[unreadable], bare head right ? /[unreadable] III VIR AAA [?] around large S [C].
(Attribution uncertain)
Countermarks: P•P• in 8 x 6 mm oval
M. Pangerl Collection 81.
(8.29 grams / 25 mm)

 

What a fun hodgepodge of countermark!
I hadn't heard of the PP countermark on these until I started looking into purchasing my new coin, which I have since decided is not a PP. The part that was confusing me (by creating a line near the second D making it look like a P) is that the countermark DD on these types has a palm branch running through it!
Here's some more examples:


And then here's a PP CM that was for sale on V coins:

A very scarce countermark, the Nemausus issue of Augustus and Agrippa, especially the posthumous types, usually have the DD countermark. This PP one, which stands for Pater Patriae, was applied during Augustus' lifetime, likely when the updated Nemausan coinage was issued, and included the P P on the obverse.

 

That looks like the central depression on a lot of ptolemaic and seleucid bronze coins (a result of the coin making process).

 

There is the "DV" countermark that revalued worn and imitative sestertii of Claudius to circulate at dupondii. An extra edge notch was added as well.

I have two of these. The first one is a gift from that great CT guy, jamesicus.



Claudius Æ Dupondius
(c. 41-54 A.D.)
Unofficial Mint? (Sestertius)
TI CLAVDIVS CAESAR AVG PM TR P IMP, laureate head r. / [SP]ES AVGVSTA,
Spes stdg. left, holding flower & raising hem, [SC in ex.]
RIC 99; Cohen 85 (imitative).
(16.74 grams / 29 mm)

Countermark: DV and edge cut at 3 o'clock, obverse.
Pangerl Collection No. 58. This countermark signified validation as a dupondius
on lightweight or unofficial sestertii.


Another, much cruder one:


Claudius Æ Dupondius
(c. 41-54 A.D.)
Unofficial Mint (Sestertius)
[Missing] and garbled legend, laureate head right / [SPES AVGVSTA?], Spes standing left, holding flower & raising hem, [SC in exergue?]
RIC 99; Cohen 85 (imitative).
(10.66 grams / 29 mm)

Countermark: DV and edge cut at 3 o'clock, obverse.
Pangerl Collection No. 58.
This countermark signified validation as a dupondius on lightweight or unofficial sestertii.

 

I kept a couple of counter marked coins @Marsyas Mike, even after I drastically reduced my collection, because I like them so much. I do not want to step on your post here Mike, or hijack this thread, so I will start my own thread relating to counter marked Claudian coins. In the meantime, here is one of my coins:


TYPICAL IMITATIVE CLAUDIUS SPES SESTERTIUS WITH DEVALUATION COUNTERMARK
Pangeri 85d, (29mm, 14.6gm)
Countermarked DV (denoting half value) on obverse

This is a devaluation countermark indicating this coin is re valued as a Dupondius (half value) due to its low weight. Note edge chisel mark on the obverse at approx. 3 o'clock which is always present on DV countermarked coins.

 

Nice one, James! Everything I know about these, I learnt from you (and half my collection of these is thanks to you).

I don't want to hijack the thread either, but the re-valuing of AEs in Julio-Claudian times seems somewhat relevant (I hope).

What I am wondering is if there is a connection between the Augustus issues and the later Claudian issues. They are both dupondii, right? Where and for how long did these circulate? Did the Crocodiles and the imitative Claudians circulate together (i.e. are they found together in hoards?).

This stuff is fascinating.