Featured Two counterfeit coins in counterfeit PCGS holders.

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by johnmilton, Jul 6, 2020.

  1. nuMRmatist

    nuMRmatist Well-Known Member

    Can you post a pic of Reverse ?

    There's one characteristic common to '22 's , and to '55 dd's , that is pretty well-documented .......
     
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  3. nuMRmatist

    nuMRmatist Well-Known Member

    I don't know if I agree with that 'reading RFID chips @ a few feet' part.

    I can stick my RFID-chipped Debit / Credit cards INTO THE READER, and it occasionally CAN'T READ THE CARD.

    Reading from a few feet away ? Possible , but even with hi-power reading device, UNLIKELY ..................................
     
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  4. calcol

    calcol Supporter! Supporter

    For those worried about privacy, covering a technoslab with metal (foil, sheet, wire) will stop the wireless communication. And yes, this does give thieves a chance. But it does require them to do a few more motions to hide the goods before walking out. A lot of retailers still find RFID tags in merchandise to be worth it to discourage shoplifting.

    There's no reason collectors, dealers, auction houses, police, and everyone else can't make use of the security provided by technoslabs. All that would be needed is a reader and connection to the internet (phone or computer). If the wireless choice of TPGs should be bluetooth, then a lot of folks already have the reader built in.

    And yeah, it will make a bundle for the TPGs in reholdering fees.

    Cal
     
  5. calcol

    calcol Supporter! Supporter

    There are lots of wireless transponder options. There's no need to use one that can be read from feet away on a credit card ... and good reasons not to. But there are ones that have a much further reach. For example, the FasTrak transponders in cars in the Bay Area (used for bridges and toll lanes) can respond 25 ft away and can communicate fine when the car is going 70 mph.

    If your phone has blue tooth, wifi and cell capabilities, it has transponders that operate at about 15 ft, 100 ft and 5 miles.

    The decision of what type to put in a slab will not be easy. Lots of things to consider: complexity of processor, memory, range, antenna size, frequency, power consumption, etc.

    Cal
     
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  6. nuMRmatist

    nuMRmatist Well-Known Member

    Laser - read devices , through glass, is one thing.

    But otherwise ?

    Where's 'physics-fan' here ?

    ed.:
    And remember - the card does NOT transmit. It's a 1-way transmit / receive execution...
     
  7. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    I ran the same QR reader comparison on the 1915 10 from the OP as I did with my posted "1955" with the same results- the counterfeit scans to the correct PCGS on-line cert while there is the same error trying to read the genuine one.
    Is there an issue reading this on genuine slabs?

    CTFT-QR-read.jpg Gen-QR-read.jpg
     
  8. calcol

    calcol Supporter! Supporter

    Of course the card transmits if a "tap" is used. How else could the reader get the account info from it? The "tap" method, of necessity, is 100% wireless both ways. Inserting may use direct contacts both ways or could also be wireless both ways or could use wireless one way and direct contact the other.

    Cal
     
  9. nuMRmatist

    nuMRmatist Well-Known Member

    I don't think that's right man.

    I think an RFID chip only REFLECTS something transmitted TO it. .........

    ed.:
    I bet you $1 on that.

    There ain't no battery in chip cards. Same with new paper money, with the metallic strip.................................
     
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  10. manny9655

    manny9655 Well-Known Member

    That coin is not only counterfeit, but it looks like it was whizzed. Dead giveaway.
     
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  11. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    "When the chip receives a query signal, it generates a long random number which it combines with the ID number; then encrypts the pair. The encrypted pair is sent out. The PCGS server decrypts the pair and separates them. Then it checks the ID number against its database. It sends back "invalid" if that's the case. If valid, it sends back "valid" plus grade plus cert. no. and maybe a picture as well."
    But what if the PCGS got that exact same response say a year later. Wouldn't still decrypt the response, strip out the random number and then respond to the valid serial number? After all the server can't know what random number the chip generated. Unless it was the server that generated the random number and sent it to the chip in the initial query. It wasn't generated by the chip. That would stop or at least slow skimming because the server would not get back the same random number it sent. In that case the key would be in the encryption algorithm

    So do the ones in the slabs.

    And that last one is important because the chip gets its power to do the encryption and respond back from the radio signal it gets from the reader. It has no internal power source of its own.
     
  12. calcol

    calcol Supporter! Supporter

    As I said in a follow-up post, the PCGS server remembers the random number it received with the ID number. If it sees it again, it will know that the newest attempt is fraudulent.

    BTW, the method I described is just one of many that will work. Another is for PCGS to download a few million different codes into the chip that are unique to that slab. Each code will be used by the chip only once. So if a counterfeiter captures a code from a genuine slab and puts it in a fake, it will do no good.

    Cal
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2020
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  13. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Hence the reason to use the PCGS app. Real one scans fine fake one comes back invalid in the scan without a barcode mode.
     
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  14. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    Very interesting and enlightening
     
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  15. calcol

    calcol Supporter! Supporter

    Nope. It can't just reflect what it receives. How could it transmit the account info if that's all it did. Certainly the scanner doesn't already know the account number of the card, and if it did, what would be the point of the communication anyway? The signal sent by the scanner does two things: tells the chip to send the account info and provides the energy for the chip to operate and transmit the account info.

    Cal
     
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  16. Michael K

    Michael K Well-Known Member

    Not an expert by any means. But even I could see the eagle on the 1st coin was practically a duck. And the 3 on the 2nd coin was absolutely bad.
     
  17. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    Was that a guess or had you actually tried it?
    I had my friend read the two counterfeit QR's with the PCGS phone app and they also scanned correctly there.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2020
  18. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    I'm apparently just guessing at things so you guys figure it out
     
  19. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    Not very helpful...
     
  20. john65999

    john65999 Well-Known Member

    this is scary
    ...this is scary...a lot of people trust in slabs...i guess you have to look up numbers to match and see from now on..this is one reason i am very wary of buying gold..i only own 3 pieces, 5.00 gold raw..wow, just wow is all i can say...smh
     
  21. Malleus Maleficarum

    Malleus Maleficarum Well-Known Member

    I just bought a coin. An 1880 Trade Dollar. PCGS certified. The bar code number matched up. The QR code was proper. I studied the coin for at least an hour before I purchased it. I even looked up the seller, since they have a coin shop, driving distance from where I live. Turns out they're PCGS Authorized Dealers.

    Still, there was no picture of the coin on the PCGS web site, nor was there any past auction data on it.

    Now this is where having a picture certainly would help. I would've felt a lot more secure with my purchase if there was one.

    The other 2 Trade Dollars that I purchased this week, both were NGC certified with pictures. I felt better about those 2.
     
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