Featured Leopold II, King of the Belgians and the Congo Free State

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by Cachecoins, Jun 27, 2020.

  1. Cachecoins

    Cachecoins Historia Moneta

    The breakdown of vote totals are available online and he got 23 percent. That is about 521,000 votes out of close to 3 million votes.

    I would take objective eye witness reports over the second hand info and opinions of a reporter any day....in fact much of the info he is presenting comes from the casement report with embellishments.
     
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  3. midas1

    midas1 Exalted Member

    We are discussing different events. I really don't want to do a deep dive into this but I will.
     
  4. Cachecoins

    Cachecoins Historia Moneta

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  5. midas1

    midas1 Exalted Member

    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  6. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    A fairly scarce silver series was issued in the 1880s-1890s for Belgian Congo that had similar obverses to Belgian homeland types. Prices tend to be salty on these, I suspect because of collector demand. I am not sure if they circulated in Africa much, if at all.

    I have an 1891 2 francs. Note the obverse legend LEOP. II R. D. BELG. SOUV. DE L'ETAT INDEP. DU CONGO:

    Belgian Congo 1891 2 francs Jun 2020 pics (5).jpg
     
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  7. Cachecoins

    Cachecoins Historia Moneta

    Thanks for posting that. Those seem to go for a very heavy premium. 1891 only had a mintage if 25,000. All years have a rather low mintage.
     
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  8. midas1

    midas1 Exalted Member

    Beating a Dead Horse -
    Leopold II knew what atrocities the CFS had been committing in the Congo.

    Belgium continued to interfere in Congo politics,
    including the murder of popular politician Lumumba.

    ". . . In 1895, a campaign—in The Times, among others—denounced the abuse in the CFS. Hearing of these allegations, the Belgian King promised changes and reforms and, in that way, managed to keep the reputation of the CFS intact—that is, until the arrival on the scene of Edmund Morel. Hired by Sir Alfred Jones, business partner of Léopold II, Morel used his pen to defend the cause of ship-owners in Liverpool. As a clerk for the company Morel noticed that the ships leaving Belgium for the Congo carried guns, chains, and explosives but no commercial goods, while ships arriving from the CFS came back full of valuable products such as rubber and ivory. This discovery led him to understand the exploitative nature of the regime. To defend the welfare of Africans, Morel launched his own newspaper—The West African Mail—to denounce the brutal exploitation of the natives. This new publication immediately drew the attention of the CFS.[10] The association of Jones and Morel later fuelled the Belgian fantasy that claimed the merchants of Liverpool were plotting against the country. . . "
    https://breac.nd.edu/articles/the-t...ial-reactions-and-popular-opinion-in-belgium/

    ". . . but the MNC refused to participate without Lumumba. Lumumba was thereupon released from prison and flown to Brussels. The conference agreed on a date for independence, June 30, with national elections in May. Although there was a multiplicity of parties, the MNC came out far ahead in the elections, and Lumumba emerged as the leading nationalist politician of the Congo. Maneuvers to prevent his assumption of authority failed, and he was asked to form the first government, which he did on June 24, 1960. . . "

    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Patrice-Lumumba#ref57193

    ". . . On the flight there, they had been beaten by the soldiers escorting them, and, once they landed in Katanga, they were beaten again. Later that day, Lumumba, Okito, and Mpolo were executed by a firing squad under Belgian command. Although their bodies were initially thrown into shallow graves, they were later dug up under the direction of Belgian officers, hacked into pieces, and dissolved in acid or burned by fire. . . "

    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Patrice-Lumumba
     
  9. Cachecoins

    Cachecoins Historia Moneta

    My only objection was to this statement which is objectively untrue.

    Certainly Leopold knew what took place in the Congo, the question remains when did he know of the full scope and how much if it was official policy set by him.
     
  10. midas1

    midas1 Exalted Member

    Cachecoins - " . . . the question remains when did he know of the full scope and how much if it was official policy set by him. . . "

    It's public knowledge in 1895 he knew exactly the atrocities and terror that were being committed by his own people and the Force Publique.

    ". . . In 1895, a campaign—in The Times, among others—denounced the abuse in the CFS. Hearing of these allegations, the Belgian King promised changes and reforms and, in that way, managed to keep the reputation of the CFS intact—that is, until the arrival on the scene of Edmund Morel. . . . "
    //breac.nd.edu/articles/the-three-lives-of-the-casement-report-its-impact-on-official-reactions-and-popular-opinion-in-belgium
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
  11. Cachecoins

    Cachecoins Historia Moneta

    The Congo Free State was established in 1885 so you are basing when he knew by when it was first publish...okay...that is fair since certainly he knew by 1896 but if it was official policy I would think he would have known from the start.
     
  12. midas1

    midas1 Exalted Member

    I would rephrase the question - how could he not know.
    The BC was his creation and all activities were excruciatingly documented from the very beginning. Do you think he did not read the documentation of his creation? Do you think he was unintelligent, naive, easily fooled, a dolt? I think not.

    ". . . The documentation was not easy to come by; the furnaces of the palace in Brussels are said to have spent more than a week burning incriminating papers before Leopold turned over his private Congo to the Belgian nation. For many years Belgian authorities prevented access to what remained of the archives, notably the accounts given by Congolese to the King's Commission. . "

    King Leopold's Ghost, Hochschild
    Finalist for the 1998 National Book Critics Circle Award, Mark Lynton History Prize, J. Anthony Lukas award in the United States, and the Duff Cooper Prize in England.

    I may have to add rereading King Leopold's Ghost to my reading list.
    Also, King Leopold's Ghost documentary on Amazon Prime is recommended,

    From The Congo by Vachel Lindsay

    Listen to the yell of Leopold's ghost,
    Burning in Hell for his hand-maimed host.
    Hear how the demons chuckle and yell,
    Cutting his hands off, down in Hell.
    Listen to the yell of Leopold's ghost,
    Burning in Hell for his hand-maimed host.
    Hear how the demons chuckle and yell,
    Cutting his hands off, down in Hell.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
  13. Cachecoins

    Cachecoins Historia Moneta

    If it wasn't being documented because it wasn't being reported because it wasn't official policy then.... I wouldnt presume to know and certainly wouldn't report what I believe might be the case as fact any more than I would report how many people died of sleeping sickness in west Africa at the time.

    Again, I suggest reading the Casement report if you want to read account collected during his investigation on the ground in the Congo.

    BTW...my own little history I posted here clearly states that George Washington Williams published an open letter to Leopold describing what he witnessed there during a trip to the Congo in 1890. :)

    Who is the source for the furnace quote you keep posting if you don't mind.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
  14. midas1

    midas1 Exalted Member

    "... Who is the source for the furnace quote you keep posting if you don't mind. . . "

    As previously referenced - King Leopold's Ghost, Hochschild.

    I read the Casement Report.
    Also, if my memory is still functioning Hochschild devotes a good bit of space to it in King Leopold's Ghost.

    Peace
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
  15. Cachecoins

    Cachecoins Historia Moneta

    Yes, I know you are quoting him. Was Hochschild there?

    "furnaces of the palace in Brussels are said..."

    Who said?

    Anyway...I do understand that you have very strong feelings about this subject and certainly there is nothing wrong with that. It is a heavy and very complex subject that certainly evokes strong emotions and I am not taking that lightly. I do appreciate the discussion.

    Thanks.
     
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  16. midas1

    midas1 Exalted Member

    So do I.
    Enjoy.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2020
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