Featured Leopold II, King of the Belgians and the Congo Free State

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by Cachecoins, Jun 27, 2020.

  1. Cachecoins

    Cachecoins Historia Moneta

    Numbers are important as I said. Tell a Jewish person that numbers aren't important. You are quoting something that is a 'it is said...' blurb and while I would not refute it, I also wouldn't hold it as proof of anything save that if true, and it is clear rhat records were disposed of, it was simply to destroy proof of any complicity but does not confirm or dispell anything save what we already know is true, that atrocities were committed.

    I have read Leopold's Ghost and he agrees that the numbers of dead and exactly what percentage of those deaths can be attributed to direct and deliberate action by colonial officials are unknown. He is not an historian so he also reports information without citing sources. It's an important book but not without it's problems. While any crimes and death are unacceptable, there is a big difference between a few thousand and 10 million. There is a difference between repeating a shocking story and presenting a verifiable source for it.

    You talk about keeping historians honest but it only serves to muddy history further to present numbers derived through supposition as fact, presenting intent that wasn't there such as genocide or reporting a shocking story of unknown origin. It's dishonest.

    I can assure you I am not an apologist for Leopold and certainly if I am wrong in what I have presented here I would certainly admit it if presented with a reliable source. However, I believe that even with a dearth of information he is undoubtedly guilty of being duplicitous, lying and of presiding over crimes against humanity. I am just not willing to accept or to report the full extent of the crimes without reliable data as there are so many unknowns in this case.

    No hard feelings here. I thank you for engaging and discussing this. I was taught that when writing history, it is important to be objective and not make moral judgements. I am more than willing to admit i doubt know everything there is to know.

    If you are writing about Hitler and the Nazi party, it is not the historians job to pronounce them monsters or evil. The job is to present the known facts and allow the reader to conclude what they will. It just so happens the Nazis were meticulous record keepers and left behind plenty of indisputable proof of exactly what they did and why they did it. Sadly much of history is not as clear cut.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2020
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  3. midas1

    midas1 Exalted Member

    I agree numbers are important, however, they are not relevant to our discussion re: what Leopold II engineered and what he knew about the atrocities committed by his forces and "agents" in Congo. I will not dispute any numbers you post.

    During the 1940s, Jules Marchal, Belgium official, after researching surviving Congo archives states 10million Congolese were killed during Leopold's grip on Congo.

    As a kid, I read Conrad's Heart of Darkness and never forgot Conrad or his book. Many years later, I read Hochschild's Leopold's Ghost.
    What is your interest in Leopold?
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2020
  4. Cachecoins

    Cachecoins Historia Moneta

    Heart of Darkness was an outstanding book, one if the best books I have ever read. One of two books, I, Claudius being the other, that inspired me to study history.

    The only thing I dispute and find wrong is the common practice if presenting numbers that cannot be known and intent that was not there. If that is not a problem with you then we probably agree on most other points. I personally believe he knew of the atrocities I just am not sure if he was aware of the extent and I do not believe his intent was genocide. I do not know if he told his agents to mutilate and kill or if they took those actions on their own as a way to use fear to motivate them to meet quotas and he did nothing to stop it. These things were not clear to me in my research.

    My interest in this history is because in college I studied colonialism... Spanish, Rhodesia, South Africa, Borneo, etc...and I noticed as I read about the Congo that there was a lot being said that could not be verified so I chose to try and confirm some of the facts being present and found that in many cases there were no sources or the source was a story or data that could not be confirmed. I found a lot of sloppy history there...mostly by writers who were not historians but reporters who did not really research as much as regurgitate information and this sloppy history and data became fact to people who never bother to check the veracity.

    Again, my intention is not to minimize these events but to clarify what is and isn't known.

    What IS known is that there were severe crimes against humanity perpetrated in the Congo at this time. Sadly it is still happening today.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2020
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  5. midas1

    midas1 Exalted Member

    your efforts are admirable. However, I believe you present a sanitized view of Leopold's involvement and knowledge of the horrors he created in the Congo. "I do not believe his intent was genocide." I agree, I believe his goal was to steal everything he could from the Congo.
    His minions kept meticulous Congo records, unfortunately, he ordered them destroyed.
    Hochschild -
    ". . . The documentation was not easy to come by; the furnaces of the palace in Brussels are said to have spent more than a week burning incriminating papers before Leopold turned over his private Congo to the Belgian nation. For many years Belgian authorities prevented access to what remained of the archives, notably the accounts given by Congolese to the King's Commission. . . "
    I wonder where Congo would be today if Patrice Lumumba had not been assassinated?
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2020
  6. Cachecoins

    Cachecoins Historia Moneta

    It's hard to say. I have read a lot about Mobutu Sese Seko and the events surrounding his rise to power and the independence of the Congo and while certainly Belgium, the Soviet Union and the US influenced events, there were close to 50 different political parties at the time, all of which where vying to take control with a lot of conflict along tribal and faction lines. It was chaotic and dangerous for anyone in a leadership role at that time even without the external meddling.

    Things are much the same now. Conflict down tribal and factional lines that seem never ending. Its unfortunate as it is a resource rich area that could, under the right leadership, provide for the people who have suffered there so much and for so long. zaire.jpg

    [​IMG]
     
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  7. midas1

    midas1 Exalted Member

    The country was united behind Patrice Lumumba. Mobutu was probably the worst thing that could've happened to the Congo at the time.
     
  8. Siberian Man

    Siberian Man Senior Member

    I have rather big collection of coins of Belgian Congo. It is the one of my favorite colonial thread.
     
  9. Siberian Man

    Siberian Man Senior Member

    Albert I.
    10 and 20 centimes.
    7.jpg 8.jpg 5.jpg 6.jpg
     
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  10. Siberian Man

    Siberian Man Senior Member

    Albert I.
    50 centimes and 1 franc.
    3.jpg 4.jpg 13.jpg 14.jpg
     
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  11. Siberian Man

    Siberian Man Senior Member

    Leopold III.
    1 franc.
    25.jpg 26.jpg
     
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  12. Siberian Man

    Siberian Man Senior Member

    Leopold III.
    2 francs.
    9.jpg 10.jpg 21.jpg 22.jpg
     
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  13. Siberian Man

    Siberian Man Senior Member

    Leopold III.
    5 francs.
    1.jpg 2.jpg
     
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  14. Siberian Man

    Siberian Man Senior Member

    Baudouin I.
    1 franc.
    17.jpg 18.jpg
     
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  15. Siberian Man

    Siberian Man Senior Member

    Baudouin I.
    5 francs.
    15.jpg 16.jpg 19.jpg 20.jpg
     
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  16. Mkman123

    Mkman123 Well-Known Member

    Leopold is a disgusting person, one of the most famous photos I remember seeing posted everywhere is of a man looking at the amputated feet or hand of his daughter? She was killed and supposedly cannibalized because the father did not meet quota?
    Disgusting!!!
     
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  17. midas1

    midas1 Exalted Member

    Those interested in the brutal history of the Congo should watch King Leopold's Ghost on Amazon Prime or read King Leopold's Ghost: A Story of Greed, Terror, and Heroism in Colonial Africa by Adam Hochschild

    There's a special place in Hell for Leopold II,
    Muammar Gaddafi, Hitler, Idi Amin, et al.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  18. Cachecoins

    Cachecoins Historia Moneta

    I would think you would do better to read the casement report.
     
  19. Cachecoins

    Cachecoins Historia Moneta

    Indeed cannibalism was a problem in the Congo. The Casement Report was not favorable to the Free State government but he did say that it appeared they had stopped slavery and cannibalism, or severely minimized it, by the indigenous population.

    Casement claims to have witnessed cannibalism on his first trip but saw no evidence of it on his second years later.
     
  20. Cachecoins

    Cachecoins Historia Moneta

    While I won't argue the point, I wouldn't say this. While the Mouvement National Congolais-Lumumba got 23 percent of the vote which was a plurality the election was highly contentious drawn down tribal and regional loyalties. It was marked by riots, civil unrest and clashes between partisans from at least 6 major parties all getting over 250-100 thousand votes and then a long list of minor parties garnering the votes from their areas. The amounts of votes candidates got was often dictated by the population of the region they were from. The election result do not show a country unified. In my opinion it shows that Congo was then as they remain, highly fractured by regionalism and tribalism.
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  21. midas1

    midas1 Exalted Member

    That's not how I remember it. Possibly we read different sources. As I remember, Lumumba's party got the vast majority votes of those groups present. I do remember a significant number were not present for the vote.
    Had the Western powers, including the USA, responded to Lumumba's pleas for help he would not have turned to the Soviet Union for assistance. Also, w/ Belgium's continuing under the covers meddling Lumumba may not have been successful no matter what. Well, that's it from the dust bin of my memory. I don't look forward to rereading the Casement Report. I stand by Hochschild's book as being the definitive Leopold/Congo reference. Also, the documentary King Leopold's Ghost on Amazon Prime is recommended.
     
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