I think I have the identification. That is, who and what is in the coin and where it's from. I just cannot find another coin of the type searching AC search, Google, Forum nor here in CT (I can't get Wild winds to work on my phone anymore for some reason). There are some very similar coins of the type on AC search, but smaller and with the triskeles on the reverse. Could my coin just be a slightly larger denomination? Oh, and surprise surprise, it’s a shield coin though not from Macedon. Here’s my coin followed by the coins like it from AC search: PISIDIA. Selge Ae (2nd-1st century BC). Obv: Round shield with monogram ΠΘ. Rev: Athena or maybe Artemis (?) Condition: Very fine. Weight: 1.89 g. Diameter: 14 mm. Ex Savoca Pisidia. Selge circa 200-0 BC. Bronze Æ 12mm., 2,20g. Round shield with monogram / Triskeles. very fine SNG von Aulock 5298. PISIDIA. Selge. Ae (2nd-1st century BC). Obv: Round shield with monogram ΠΘ. Rev: Triskeles. SNG von Aulock 5298. Condition: Very fine. Weight: 1.29 g. Diameter: 11 mm. PISIDIA. Selge. Ae (2nd-1st century BC). Obv: Round shield with monogram ΠΘ. Rev: Triskeles. SNG von Aulock 5298. Condition: Very fine. Weight: 1.29 g. Diameter: 11 mm. PISIDIE, SELGE, AE bronze, 2e-1er s. av. J.-C. Droit : [..] au centre d'un bouclier rond. Revers : Triskèle dans un cercle de grènetis. Ref.: SNG von Aulock 5298. 1,36g. Rare. Patine verte. Superbe EF Does anyone have SNG von Aulock, that would be willing to check on my coin type? Any Ideas/guesses at who the monogram is a reference to? Is that Athena on the reverse? Does anyone have this coin type or have seen it before? Your help is appreciated.
This was the perfect occasion to try out a recent book splurge purchased from Warren Esty (@Valentinian): Numismata Graeca: Greek Coin-Types Classified for Immediate Identification by L. Anson, 1910-1916. I think mine is a Forni reprint. It's a 2 volume set; Vol. I is the usual style of written catalog and Vol. II are plates. It's arranged by subject matter: Instead of jumping straight to the plates I tried the written catalog, part II. There are 18 or so pages and fortunately I found a match on the first of those pages. Looks like you have it right: Pisidia, Selge. Here's the entry: And the plate: Hmm, there isn't a table or explanation of the size and weight units or conversion. Weight is in grains, perhaps? Not sure what to make of the numbers and units for size and my older books which contain such tables are in storage. With a little digging I'm sure we can find the info online. This book is available free online in various locations. Perhaps I should have just used that rather than shelling out considerable money for a book... but it sure is nice to flip through a book!
It must be a scarce autonomous issue, because most of the coins of that series which have Athena on obverse have Helios or Gorgoneion on reverse.
The Anson listing cites the British Museum collection and that volume (Lycia) is viewable online as a .pdf. Anson even cites the page number and coin number which speeds things up considerably! Here's a screen capture of that entry: ...and the plate:
You’re a lifesaver! Thanks @TIF. I was pretty sure it was Athena but that question has now been answered. Interestingly, the plate photos make it look like the Triskeles are the larger coin.
Yes-- Anson cites it in his book. I guess you could attribute it as BM Lycia p. 262 no. 55 and Numismata Graeca #850.
Double thanks TIF! Thanks to your help I dug up the online reference (always nice to have more Greek references) I found the entire book on pdf! And I have made the appropriate changes to my identification: PISIDIA. Selge Ae (2nd-1st century BC). Obv: Round shield with monogram ΠΘ. Rev: Athena wearing crested Athenian helmet Condition: Very fine. Weight: 1.89 g. Diameter: 14 mm. Ref: BM Lycia p. 262 no. 55 and Numismata Graeca #850 Ex Savoca I just wish there was more to learn about this area. Unidentified monograms always drive me nuts thinking about what we may never know. Though, i did find it pretty cool while researching, that when Alexander the Great was in Pisidia, the Selgens sent an embassy to meet him and gain his favor and friendship! Earlier i had said the coin wasn’t a Macedonian shield... however, they more than likely were influenced by the Macedonian monetary machine and its iconography! Still, who the cripes is ΠΘ???
I am not holding my breath that the monogram is pi theta and not pi omikron.... The city attribution might be also uncertain, see here the coin attributed to aspendos https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=550920
I missed this thread the first time around. CNG's attribution to Aspendos is the best. Most auction houses use SNG Paris (also called SNG BN or SNG France) because the volume dedicated to Pamphylia and Pisidia documents a pretty good collection. What most people don't know is the BnF's coin collection is online. Here is there example: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8514547z The attribution to Aspendos is because of the similarity to SNG BN 140, a slinger bronze with the same monogram. I couldn't find 140, but here is 139, which is similar but with a different monogram. https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b85145595 The BN catalog has runs of horse/knucklebone, shield/caduceus, etc, all with varying letter combos no one understands. George Hill, author of the BMC volume on Pamphylia and Pisidia, wrote “The separation from each other of the coinages of Selge and Aspendus is very difficult. In the fourth and third centuries there was apparently a monetary convention between the two places and a similar agreement seems to have existed even earlier."
The Attic or Acrophonic numerical system were a common feature on coins and other contexts, and sometimes this was used alongside the Ionic or Alphabetic system. Other symbols in turn deriving from a secondary set were also used to describe quantities of money. These had been based on numerical systems used in specific poleis that had also a wider geographical applications. For instance, the notation , sometimes simplified to O, that in Argos indicates the amount of 10, was used throughout the Greek world, especially in Aspendos, founded by Argos’ settlers. When the numerical value from Argos representing O to be 10 is multiplied with Π or 5 (according to the Attic system), the symbol is obtained which has the value of 50. So, I'm gonna go with a stab and go with:
The Greek numeral joke is OK but it is very clever that you "take a stab" at 50 Cent! (He was stabbed in 2000). I don't have the letter combos for the Aspendos shield/woman bronzes. For the Medusa/caduceus bronzes the letters are Ο-Σ, Ο-Θ, Σ-Κ, Σ-Ι, Π-Ρ, Ο, and (dubious?) F-Δ. Those could be two-letter abbreviations for names, to me it feels more like two separate letters. Possibly each is the first letter of magistrate. The letters caused intense difficulty in attributing these. For example, the Medusa/caduceus bronze with Σ-Κ is attributed to Skiathos in Thessaly in SNG Copenhagen and Sear's Greek Coins and Their Values even though Imhoof-Blumer had attributed them to Aspendos by 1901.
Thanks Ed! This BnF site is great. Though, their coin is centered much better and is prettier than mine, I'll take mine over BnFs with the patina still on it(looks like they did electrolysis on theirs) I have both cities listed as possibilities (though in reverse order. So I will have to switch my attribution to put Aspendos in the lead). Pamphylia, Aspendos or Pisidia Selge Ae (2nd-1st century BC). Obv: Round shield with monogram ΠΘ or ΠO. Rev: Athena wearing crested Athenian helmet Condition: Very fine. Weight: 1.89 g. Diameter: 14 mm. Ref: BM Lycia p. 262 no. 55 and Numismata Graeca #850 Ex Savoca I take it by your reasoning for CNGs attribution being the best due to the monogram matching another type known to be from Aspendos, you then don't believe it to be a mark of value but rather the name of the magistrate? And agreed, well done @Herodotus That reminds me of a thread I put together some time ago... https://www.cointalk.com/threads/wh...greece-da-club-of-course.345632/#post-3678545
I like yours better too. I did a lot of research on the gorgon/caduceus bronzes. The letter pairs on those cannot be a mark of value because they change. This is ancient Greece, not Zimbabwe! The SNG BN 140 specimen has the same ΠO monogram with a slinger. "Slinger" is supposedly Aspendos' type (although we also see it as Selge and Etenna!). The two-letter bronze coins are confusing. 120 years ago Hill said one thing so the English-speaking world refers to Selge. Imhoof-Blumer said something else so the Francophone world refers to Aspendos. Perhaps someone figured this out during the 20th century. Unfortunately the 100 year old books are online freely, and the 50 year-olds cost $$$ from antiquarian booksellers. A serious scholar would look at the hoards and without them say "Uncertain (Aspendos or Selge?)". There is only one published coin hoard with bronze from Selge and none from Aspendos. http://coinhoards.org/id/igch1420 includes Selge BMC 38 (Herakles/stag) and 59 (shield/lancehead). None of the two-letter bronzes are in any hoards I know of.
Whoa...That's crazy. Or as my hippy mother would state: "Cosmic!". Well, it's often quipped that great minds think alike.
I'm late to the party... No matter how I look at the reverse of Ryro's coin I just don't see Athena, but I do keep on seeing these two: Resemblance?
