Featured An examination of the counterfeit slab epidemic. Scope and advice.

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by TypeCoin971793, Feb 20, 2020.

  1. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    It sounds like the guy that informed me he bought a hoard of coins for 12 Euros and it was his Pension. No chance they could be fake. Right?
     
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  3. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    The only person who believes the world to be so black and white is you. I've already said we should be concerned about fake slabs, I've simply challenged your unfounded claim that it's an epidemic. You've already admitted several times that you've overstated and inflated your info to spook people into action. Your attempts to cast shade at me after all this are pathetic. I'd call this an argument from ignorance logic fallacy, but calling it an argument would be an overstatement. Good day.
     
    Paul M. likes this.
  4. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    WOW, seems there is more discussion about wording than the actual topic being taught by the OP...

    In fact one senior member (@Seattlite86) asked " PCGS has graded over 43 million coins, NGC over 45 million. What percentage of these 80+ million certified coins does this "epidemic" comprise?". A totally ABSURD question in relation to the stated topic- really, how many coins have NGC and PCGS put in fake holders and labels?

    Regardless of the words used to describe the magnitude of the counterfeit slab issue it is Large- large enough to attract the attention of the Federal Government, Secret Service, etc. as well as the ACTF's involvement in specific cases. The issue is affecting both new collector and seasoned Dealer. And yes, the OP and I see examples practically every day in our groups and selling venues- 7 so far this week.

    FC.jpg
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2020
  5. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    Again, why should it matter?

    I said (in other words) that I would rather it be an exaggeration to get people’s attention than to understate the problem and have it go ignored. Neither of us know how saturated the market is with fake slabs. I’d rather be wrong overestimating the threat than underestimating the threat.

    Your attempts to misinform collectors by belittling the problem for the sake of attention is pathetic.

    Put me on your ignore list. I won’t bother trying to help you anymore. I’m tired of you making problems out of nothing and trying to misinform the numismatic community. Go have a few beers with your buddy Baseball
     
  6. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    Wow, I'm misinforming the community?? This from the person admitting to intentionally inflating information to stir up attention? Pot... kettle...?
     
  7. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    Here’s a bunch of fake slabs. They are even counterfeiting slabs from the Chinese grading services, which are using knockoff PCGS and NGC slabs.

    4A4E5402-FD44-4AEE-BB78-B5AFD95312BA.jpeg 8B6C13E3-4225-4808-BCDA-039E20F55055.jpeg
     
    Paul M. and atcarroll like this.
  8. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    As of tonight, there have been about 80,000 coronavirus cases reported globally, out of a global population of 7.7 billion. That's just a hair over 0.00001. Epidemic, or no?

    We don't know how many cases are unreported, and we don't know how quickly new cases are appearing. Sounds eerily analogous to the counterfeit-slabs situation, at least to me...
     
  9. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    atcarroll likes this.
  10. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    Epidemic: a sudden, widespread occurrence of a particular undesirable phenomenon.


    Coronavirus: less than 2 months.
    Fake slabs: years in the making.

    No, this is not an epidemic. Epic false analogy.
     
  11. Razz

    Razz Critical Thinker

    How about a climate change analogy then? Let's just keep denying something is happening while there is time to do something about it and wait until it's too late?
     
  12. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    Oh, there's an analogy that will surely get everyone here on the same page. :rolleyes: ;)
     
  13. Seattlite86

    Seattlite86 Outspoken Member

    There is a difference between being concerned/wanting to do something about it, vs fearmongering and intentionally creating a panic by fabricating things to get attention.

    People say fake slabs are a problem, I agree with that. But if people want to pretend it's this unstoppable epidemic that's destroying numismatics, I'll ask for a little more proof than what's been shown. That doesn't say I'm against taking action, it doesnt say I don't think it's a problem, it merely says I believe the OP has wildly stretched the truth of this to cause fear and get people to listen.

    The OP has admitted on more than one occasion to doing just that and expects that we overlook the dishonesty because "it's for a good cause". Anywhere else, we would call it clickbait, for some reason here, we slide him a soap box and cheer him on.
     
    Paul M. likes this.
  14. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    It would be insanely unpopular to raise the modern, economy, and regular tiers by the $5 gold shield charge. That basically a 30% increase on moderns and something like a 20% increase on the economy tier. People want those costs going down or at least remaining relatively flat, not taking massive jumps to have TruViews on everything.

    It's currently $2500 and all world coins besides moderns.

    It really doesn't matter how many there are if they can't get it right and the overwhelming majority are laughably bad.

    Quantity really doesn't matter when they can't get it right You either know what good slabs look like or you don't. If they want to waste their time and tie up their resources pumping out a huge quantity of these awful fake slabs and move into overseas companies that are just recognized locally than by all means let them have at it.
     
  15. Marshall

    Marshall Junior Member

    You only recognize the laughably bad. You probably don't even know how many good fakes you've dealt with and it sounds like you don't want to know. So we're back to ignorance is bliss.
     
    Paul M. and Pickin and Grinin like this.
  16. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    I would like to add a couple to this "Tidal Wave" of bad slabs/ coins; a dealer friend asked for help with this one. It walked into his store and he made a bad decision in a rush- initially looked OK but on further review not so much. Turns out as I was told it is one of 10 compromised cert numbers in the series and the folks responsible were under scrutiny by the ACTF and as I understand it ultimately Secret Service. Will be interesting to hear how it eventually turns out.

    obv-combo-slab.jpg
    rev-combo-slab.jpg
    obv-combo.jpg
    Updated cert.jpg

    I hope some of the apparent mean spirited back and forths in this “discussion” do not detract from the message of the growing concern of these threats to the Hobby; I have tried to add a few from my records to the OP’s to show the breadth of the issue that includes collector coins, bullion types and foreign items (ironically many Chinese “coins”).

    One well known author has added a discussion of the counterfeit slab issue in the 4th edition of her book to be released in the near future, so hopefully the concern will continue to reach members of the Hobby going forward.
     
    markr, usc96, GoldFinger1969 and 4 others like this.
  17. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Not even close but if you want to take that stance and you want to spend your time attacking me that's your decision. You keep coming at the ignorance angle but your comment is exactly that.
     
    Seattlite86 likes this.
  18. C-B-D

    C-B-D Well-Known Member

    The quality of the fake slab is better on this one, but the coin is silly looking. As far as the slab, it looks like they got the font pretty close, but the letters and numbers are a little "fat and fuzzy." Where do you think they get the hologram stickers from?
     
  19. Jack D. Young

    Jack D. Young Well-Known Member

    China. If you look close enough you see the corner radii are off to the genuine one...
     
    GoldFinger1969 and C-B-D like this.
  20. TheFinn

    TheFinn Well-Known Member

    Unfortunately for some, ignorance is bliss.
     
  21. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    Knockoff PCGS and NGC slabs housing legitimate Chinese coins and “graded” by a legitimate company. I’ve held their slabs and they remarkably close copies, except for the NGC one.

    And guess what, every single one is photo-verifiable using the QR code! It is extremely effective and popular within the Chinese collecting community.

    175051C7-38D4-4684-831E-30A1E69BC404.jpeg 696ACC84-B19D-484A-95F8-A4DA663566AC.jpeg A25343FC-7DC5-4666-AF31-7D0F31A53B39.jpeg 7CAB37ED-E35D-4432-80E0-B989F51676B6.png FA22DD0F-0F46-434A-B654-6E68E501B545.png 39B30029-127D-4CB1-82DC-E7B81AE7014F.jpeg 1E65ADBD-0B7D-47D1-9641-4982114219EE.jpeg 1356B0C6-BBE0-422E-97C5-E87CED19129E.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2020
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