The CHI-RHO monogram challenge

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Ocatarinetabellatchitchix, Nov 16, 2019.

  1. seth77

    seth77 Well-Known Member

    If medievals are permitted, here is a dinero of Alfonso VI of Castile and Leon (1072-1109) from Toledo. Alfonso reconquered the old christian center of the Visigothic Kingdom in 1085 and afterwards styled himself as "King of Toledo (and Hispania and Galicia)." The recovery of Toledo was a great feat, both political and as a morale boost for the Reconquista. This particular issue is a heavy dinero (1.34g) from 1103, after the standardization of the coinage at Toledo.

    The chrismon on the reverse is flanked by A and W (the Alpha and the Omega) and has the extra S added to it, making the monogram read XPS.

    From a Spanish collection offered by Aureo & Calico:
    4385843l.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
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  3. Ocatarinetabellatchitchix

    Ocatarinetabellatchitchix Well-Known Member

    It’s really interesting to notice that the chi-rho was used at least until the 14th century AD on coinage. If we consider it was first found on Ptolemy III examples in the 3rd century BC, it means this monogram was employed for almost 1600 years ! Which symbol could beat that ?
     
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  4. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist

    I’m going to guess the Cross... ;)
     
  5. Ocatarinetabellatchitchix

    Ocatarinetabellatchitchix Well-Known Member

    You’re so right !

    3E283523-BEB9-4F81-A0A4-3927241C19B0.jpeg
     
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  6. Tejas

    Tejas Well-Known Member

    Here is a nice follis of Constantine I with Chi-Rho on the reverse from my collection.
    Obvers: CONSTANTINVS MAX AVG
    Reverse: GLORIA EXERCITVS, two soldiers and two standards, chi-rho high between standards.
    Mint: Arles
    Year: AD 334

    Screenshot 2019-11-18 at 20.58.19.png
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  7. Tejas

    Tejas Well-Known Member

    Here is another one from my collection. The style of the Chi-Rho is quite different: The X has no serifs.



    Screenshot 2019-11-18 at 21.09.06.png
     
  8. Tejas

    Tejas Well-Known Member

    And another Constantine I with Chi-Rho
    Obvers: CONSTANTINVS MAX AVG
    Reverse: GLORIA EXERCITVS, two soldiers and one standard with chi-rho
    Mint: Siscia
    Year: AD 336 Screenshot 2019-11-18 at 21.16.49.png
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2019
  9. Tejas

    Tejas Well-Known Member

    Another coin from my collection. Follis of the time of Constantine I
    Obverse: CONSTANTINOPOLIS, Constantinopolis helmeted left
    No legend: Victory advancing left, wings spread,
    with scepter and left on shield on ground behind,
    right foot on prow, chi-rho in field left
    Screenshot 2019-11-18 at 21.25.59.png
    Mint : Arles
    Year: 334-336
     
  10. Tejas

    Tejas Well-Known Member

    And another one from my collection. Follis from the time of Constantine I
    Obverse: VRBS ROMA, Roma helmeted and wearing imperial mantle left
    No legend: wolf and twins, two stars above with chi-rho between

    Mint: Arles

    Year: 334-336


    Screenshot 2019-11-18 at 21.39.12.png
     
  11. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    You have an impressive collection of early chi-rhos, @Tejas! Very nice!

    As I recall from Warren's discussion of these, the Siscia example is actually Constantine II as Augustus, and so a bit later. The Arles issue with a single standard is the only one from before Constantine I's death.

    258.jpg
    Constantius II as Caesar (324-337), AE4, issued 336. Arles, 2nd officina, 1.21g, 14mm.
    Obv: FL IVL CONSTANTIUS NOB C; Laureate, draped, and cuirassed bust right
    Rev: GLORIA EXERCITVS; Two soldiers standing facing one another, each holding reversed spear and resting hand upon shield; between, signum surmounted by banner with chi-rho (Christogram); SCONST in ex.
    RIC VII 396; Esty type 1.13
     
  12. Quant.Geek

    Quant.Geek Well-Known Member

    I beg to differ. I think the swastika has been used far longer than the cross and the chi-rho! Its still used in India (before and after Hitler hijacked it for his nefarious purposes).
     
  13. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    We should show one if we mention them.
    Sungas cast AE 15mm square 2nd century BC to 1st century AD - Has a cross, too
    oi3330bb2877.jpg

    Anon. late Pushkalivati 2nd cent BC
    oi3320bb2633.jpg

    I do not have a swastika earlier than the Ptolemy chi-rho. Please post.
     
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  14. Quant.Geek

    Quant.Geek Well-Known Member

    The pictures to my earlier Indian coin collection are currently offline, but here is a karshapana with a swastika on it that was found using a simple search. These coins are around 300-400 BCE:

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. Quant.Geek

    Quant.Geek Well-Known Member

    Found a picture of one of my coins:

    Post-Mauryan Taxila: Anonymous (ca. 220-185 BC) Æ Unit (BMC plate XXXII, no.4; Pieper-1064; Mitchiner-526)

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Quant.Geek

    Quant.Geek Well-Known Member

    Another one in my collection...

    Kuninda: Amoghabhuti (late 2nd Century BC) AR Drachm (MACW-4440,4441)

    Obv: Deer standing right with Goddess in front holding flower; Hill below deer. Legend around in Brahmi - Rajna Kunimdasa Amoghabhutisa Maharajasa
    Rev: Stupa and ancillary symbols; Legend around in Kharosthi - Rana Kunidasa Amoghabhutisa Maharajasa

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Quant.Geek

    Quant.Geek Well-Known Member

    Really digging deep into the bowels of my earlier collection...

    Satavahana, Nasik Region: Rano Siri Satakarni (2nd-1st Century BC) Æ Karshapana (cf Raphson Pt-I,5)

    Obv: Elephant, with trunk upraised, walking right; in front, swastika and standard; double square line-border including fishes and swastika-symbols arranged alternately. Inscription not completely read.
    Rev: Right - Tree, with large leaves, within railing; Left - Ujjain symbol surmounted by crescent; in lower corner right nandipada; in upper corner left ray-sun symbol; double square like border

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Pellinore

    Pellinore Well-Known Member

    If you mention Warren Esty, I have to show this curious coin that I bought from him. It's not very clear, but it loudly shouts "CHI-RO" to you!

    2925 e.jpg

    Constantinus II AE with Gloria Excercitus, Arles? Overstruck with a large Chi-Ro monogram. Rev. obliterated, but some marginal text left, a.o. ‘SAR’ = Arelate. Found in the county of Norfolk. 15.5 mm, 1.44 gr.
    And this is his comment:

    "15 mm. Chi-rho reverse on an ancient imitation. My guess is that it is overstruck on a Constantine II GLORIA EXERCITVS, with the reverse chi-rho over the obverse with the bottom of the original bust at 2:00. On the obverse as shown I think I can see an exergual line from 2:00 - 1:00 with SAR (Arelate) below. Found in the county of Norfolk. You have never seen anything like this, nor have I until I saw this one."

    Here's the coin turned to the alignment of its host, as suggested by Warren Esty:

    2925 g.jpg
    On the left picture, I can read IAE on 12.00h, from GLORIAEXERCITVS. On the right picture, you can see the tunic of the caesar at 6h and the back of his head at 10.30. At the left side I can even read CONS, which is not so clear in my picture.
    Here's the seller's picture, for a different angle.

    2925 B Chiro.jpg
     
  19. David@PCC

    David@PCC allcoinage.com

    Not the most clear
    g257.jpg
    Ionia
    625 to 600 BC
    Uncertain Mint
    EL 1/24 Stater
    Obvs: Raised swastika
    Revs: Incuse square punch
    7mm, 0.66g
    SNG von Aulock 1778
     
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  20. Quant.Geek

    Quant.Geek Well-Known Member

    I knew there was several Greek coins that had the swastika on them. Thanks for the post. Here is a book by Thomas Wilson that indicates that the swastika is one of the earliest symbols:

    Wilson, T., The Swastika, the earliest known symbol, and its migrations : with observations on the migration of certain industries in prehistoric times, United States National Museum, 1898

    However, with respect to the quantity of distinct coins and total issuances, I would assume that the cross trumps most symbols.
     
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  21. Tejas

    Tejas Well-Known Member

    Thanks for pointing this out. I didn't know that Constantine II used the same title as Constantine I as Augustus. I think this is backed up by the portrait, which really looks more like Constantine II than Constantine I.
    Best
    Dirk
     
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