I would like some input or any thoughts I can get on this. I sent a 1917 wheat back I felt was a double die to N G.C. some time ago. The doubleing was primarily in the liberty on the coin I sent. The coin graded out at EF45 but came back as a 1917. The grader acknowledged: the doubleing but claimed it was due to deterioration of the coin. Here were my arguments. I probably have @ 10-12 1917s in about good to very good condition not 1 of them show any doubleing of any kind. An EF-45 is damn near uncirculated so I am pretty sure there isn't much deterioration going on on the coin. MY coin does show doubleing in the date and the legend but it is weak. In the liberty however it is pretty strong in the B the E and the R. I can't find much stating how strong it has to be but I have found reference on how weak it can be. Acording to the Cherry pickers guide it reads quote "Early examples of this rare coin shows doubleing in the liberty " my thoughts are if a coin is liisted as a d/d and it has doubleing it makes sense that it is a d/d I am having a difficult time getting a picture of it as it has been slabbed and I only have my phone camera at present but will try and get an image off a digital camera. I am really not happy about this one
Pictures? NGC attributers are pretty good. They are probably right when they tell you it is not a Doubled die. Just because you read about the 1917 varieties doesn't mean you have one. Worn die strikes can occur on all years which cause die deterioration doubling.
Well I would have thought they would have read the Cherry pickers guide hell I would have figured someone over there wrote it
True however some of my crappy 1917s are really deteriorated are they saying the detiereration is in the coin or from the die?
I never really considered that . I will try and shoot some good pics of the coin. I have to break away at present but I will be back. Thanks
You probably misunderstood what NGC said. They almost certainly said die deterioration. You can have an uncirculated coin that looks like new, yet the detail makes it look like it’s all worn out. It isn’t the coin that’s worn, it’s the die. Here is a PCGS MS64+ where the worn reverse die gives the coin the appearance of being well circulated.
I've taken this remark directly from the "Description" in the CPG: "The earliest die state specimens will exhibit slight doubling on the RTY of LIBERTY." There were 196,429,785 coins struck at the Philly Mint in 1917. How many dies do you think were used to strike all of those coins? Just because the CPG refers to "early die state specimens", it does not mean that every coin struck on a new die is one of the DDO varieties. Get your facts straight. Chris
Now, you are bordering on stupidity. The original authors of the CPG are Bill Fivaz and J.T. Stanton (RIP, J.T.) Don't you know who they are? Chris
They're definitely talking about die deterioration. It's one of the things that causes doubling that is not from a doubled die. Drives me MAD (another sort of worthless doubling).
Yes because if you look at anything from 1992-1998 you can find pronounced doubleing on alot of these coins with clear separation yet some coins are classified as a double die with no separation at all just thickness of #s ????
To my knowledge there is only one major DDO for 1917 and there is little mistaking the coin. When I go shopping on ebay, I do look for a higher grade than my VG, I can scan rapidly, and I only look at the date. The most prominent doubling is in the top bar of the 7, it is thicker at the joining than the vertical of the 7. The 1's and the inner curl of the 9 usually show some notching even in VG, if it is at least VF, undamaged in the date, one should be able to see most of the key points. https://coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1917&die_id=1917p1do001&die_state=mds By the way, unslabbed '17 DDO are about 1/500 on Ebay, rest are MD at best. Jim
I can accept that they were referring to the die and not the coin it but the written description wasn't delivered very clear