All this talk about Fakes lately has got me thinking as a beginner ancient coin collector. I typically find it useful to try to win some more affordable coins through auctions on eBay or Buy It Nows for the convenience, but seeing many posts of so called "Reputable" Ebay sellers with high ratings that are selling fakes, has started to get me double thinking about purchasing in the future on that platform, as well as makes me question even some of the coins I have acquired in the past. As a beginner collector, I am not the type that are targeting Rare expensive coins, rather, I am scouting out budget coins that appeal to me and I will learn the history of the coin and period it is from if I do not already know a little bit about it. So with all of this in mind, I am curious if any of you seasoned collectors would mind sharing some of the tall tale signs of ancient fakes -- whether they are expensive coins or not (in general) and your experiences with forgeries in the past. As a novice, I obviously do not currently possess the eye to tell if what I have is definitively a fake or legitimate, and part of the fun for me, is knowing that I am indeed holding a coin 2000 years old in my hand and not just some random forgery made in Thailand or India 30 days ago. Any specifics on what to generally look for would be much appreciated! I am also curious what the #1 indicator is on how to tell if a coin is casted vs striked, as I see that topic come up often as well. Below is a coin I just acquired from a "reputable" Ebay dealer. The link of the seller is attached along with photos of the coin. In hand, this coin definitely appears to have been cleaned -- as it is so shiny and the silver really pops. Still quite happy with it though even if its a common Gordian iii https://www.ebay.com/usr/distinctivecoins
In my amateur sleuthing experience (he says putting on his Sherlock cap), Ya gotta look out not to step in the b.s.s. (bubbles, seems or smoothing). Bubbles and/or seems are tell tale marks that your coin was cast (though the crooks try and cover these up by filling and/or false patina. Among other things). And smoothing can be a sign that an ancient coin has been "touched up". Forum has some great tools as I recall.
@Ryro Are the seems typically found around the edge of the coin I would imagine? and as far as smoothing, you mean like the facing doesn't have signs that it has been around in the soil for thousands of years and has ancient wear and tear (pitting, cracks, etc)?
Its ALWAYS best to purchase your coins via sixbid platform. There you will find great auctions that deal with ancients. Best ones are CNG/ Ars Classica/ Leu Numismatics/ Morton&Eden/ Kunker/ Gorny&Mosch Slabbed coins will have designations like MS 5/5 strike 5/5 surface- perfect strike/ surfaces in mintstate.
Nailed it my friend. You look for straight even seems around the edge. And yeah, some smoothed coins look "too good to be true" but obv vs rev differences can be a tell. And other smoothed coins can make the emperor look comical compared to those real master works.
Sorry for the correction, but it is seams, just like in sewing. it is where the two halves of the mold come together. As far as smoothing goes, some of it is kind of acceptable to many ancient collectors, but not where the coin devices have been retooled.
Another thing to pay attention to and is apparent on your Gordian example (And is mostly seen on silver coins and not as often on bronze because bronze is harder? Maybe someone can confirm?) are the flow lines. Since the silver is relatively malleable, in the split second when struck, the silver spreads out and fills the gaps of the die causing a movement look to the silver, and an appearance that everything is emanating from the center outward. Think "PlayDoh Fun Factory", it sometimes sort of oozes a little around the legends too. https://www.cointalk.com/threads/just-go-with-the-flow-lines.274042/
Here is the "oozing" or seeping over behind the legends on yours (all radiating from the center-ish): Silver coin composition changed a lot (well, mostly all metal coin compositions changed) through out history, so some coins with certain compositions faired better throughout the ages than others. But you also have to consider the environment that these coins were in and for what duration. Some ancient coins "could" have been above ground in great conditions all or most of their lives (in some Victorian coin collection?), others could've been buried in acidic water for centuries, all in cooperation with their metallic makeup determine their current state.
@Justin Lee Awesome! That is a great piece of knowledge to have that I did not have before! Thanks for pointing out the lines!
Though you say your coins is really shiny, your denarius has a nice mild grey appearance. Meaning it doesn't reflect the light like a mirror or chrome would—like what freshly minted coins would. It is shiny because it has a relatively smooth surface. For some comparison, here's a similar Gordian III Antoninianus with a grey appearance (circa 238-244 AD): A Julian II Siliqua that is pretty shiny (circa 361-363 AD): A Trajan denarius (circa 114-117 AD): A Roman Republic denarius (circa 118 BC):
Here are some more resources discussing differences between cast/fake and real coins: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/moonmoth/halo_coins.html http://ancientgalleonllc.com/uncategorized/identifying-fake-ancient-coins/ (read this one when i first started) http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/fakes/struck.htm http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/fakes/cast.htm
Ah yes, but if a coin is cast from a real coin it will have flow lines! Also the idea that a coin is "too good to be true" isn't the best way to determine if a coin is fake. The best advice has been repeated hundreds of times..."Know the coin or know the dealer" If you know the coin type you'll know what to look for and what it should look like. If you don't know the coin, then you rely on the dealers expertise. In other words you trust that the dealer "knows" the coin. You have to be confident in at least one of the above. If you're not, then don't buy.
There was a thread last month that I put in my 2 denarii worth last month. At the risk of repetitiveness, below is my contribution. https://www.cointalk.com/threads/cast-coinage.324097/ Yes, fakes abound. Most of them, after a little experience, are easily detected. Some are trickier (such as the OP, and some others in this thread). A few rules I observe: 1. Avoid the high-end stuff. I do this for budgetary reasons, but also because the fakes are abundant in this material. For instance, I rarely even glance at Tiberius "tribute pennies" - they have been faked so many times (sometimes skillfully) that I'd want an expert opinion before I'd bid on one. 2. Avoid high-grade stuff. I like ancient coins because they are ancient, so my coins tend to have problems - wear, bad patina, off-center, etc. These kind of coins tend not to be faked (there are exceptions - the RR denarius with the coining tools has a very common low-grade fake - off-center, banker's mark, etc. It has been posted many times). The OP examples are an interesting case - these are fairly high end coins where some care has been taken to age them. They would've fooled me, but they were probably out of my price range anyway. 3. Everybody says "it it's too good to be true, it isn't true." I agree with this most of the time, but one of the reasons I hang around eBay so much is because of the exceptions. A Calabria, Tarentum nomos came my way in a $30 "buy it now" auction from a world coin dealer who doesn't deal many ancients: This sort of deal can be found if you can wade through gazillions of over-priced, if genuine auctions and lots of (mostly obvious) fakes. Personally, I like the hunt and I don't take the fakes personally - if I get mad, then I am not having fun, and I am here for the enjoyment. So I stick to lower-end, more common material. But this being said, there are lower-end fakes on eBay, and I have been fooled. Below are three from recent years. Here is how they got me: Gordian III Sestertius - I found this in the jewelry section; the seller made no claims for the condition, and I thought it looked nice, despite being in a bezel. I had handled very few 3rd century AEs at this point, and I bid. As soon as I took it out of the bezel, I could see the very wrong edge - filed-down seam, I think - this and the fact it weighed 10.5 grams led me to conclude it is fake - a rather nice cast, but fake. Maximinus Follis - This was a $1.99 "buy it now" with a blurry photo. I was quite inexperienced with late Roman bronzes, but I liked the looks of this one (great portrait). The fact it is corroded led me to believe that it was ancient. Nope. I believe this is a museum replica of some sort - it has that antique pewter thing going on. The corrosion might be where it was glued to a card? Even the corrosion was fake! Hadrian Sestertius: This one really fooled me - who would fake such a worn specimen? Well, somebody did. This one has an obvious casting seam (see close up photo) and weighs 14.4 grams. The seller is a reliable world coin guy who said in the auction he wasn't sure of authenticity - the other two coins in the lot were genuine LRB of Valens in pretty nice shape, so for what I paid it was still an okay deal. All three of these coins were for me very educational - and not very expensive. Some find the idea of any fake to be so off-putting that they avoid eBay altogether. I respect that. But I like the hunt (and the bargains) found there.
Speak of the devil. Just found an eBay listing for a "die match" (I doubt a die was involved) for the fake Hadrian AE I posted above. Seller says he has no idea if it is real and I believe him - he took great photos of the casting seam! The color is brassier than mine, but otherwise, I'm pretty sure these are the same. Caveat Emptor. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Roman-Coin...845586?hash=item214adbe452:g:vI8AAOSwfoJb0x9G
Thanks for sharing Mike, it's always helpful to study fakes and incorporate their attributes into one's mental "counterfeit detector", I too have been burned but not for too much, and if that's the price for a hands-on education regarding what to avoid in the future then it's certainly been worth it. After absorbing some opinions/perspectives from most others here I was getting the sense that I might have a screw loose in the head for thinking the same thing! Congrats on the great score of that Nomos, I too enjoy the treasure-hunting aspect of searching for poorly advertised "sleepers" and in the realm of coins, aside from a half dozen Greek cities that are actively sought I'd call myself a "good-deal collector" of whatever appealing ancients I can obtain cheaply enough that a profit could be generated after fees if sold at fair market price with proper title/description. I've got another 40-50 years to absorb information and refine my focus so that strategy will do just fine for now, even if marginally risky.
Wonderful! Yes, the photos of fakes and the details that make them counterfeits are very helpful and much appreciated! Thank you!
