Featured White Whale Acquired: Not the Usual Athens

Amazing capture!

 

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I am sure I am like many of us on here and enjoy browsing Ancient Joe's website - to admire the great history and incredible examples... so amazing. I was only pointed to it a couple of months ago. Once I picked my jaw off the floor I added it to my favorites...

But this one .... well .....it's just:

 

Mint records state the melting produced 14 talents of gold which would equate to it being plating over a non-gold structure.

 

I will sound heretic but I don't see what is so special about this coin. Comparing to your syracuse 100 litrai it looks like a monstrosity. Technically speaking, the engraving is not something special, it is off-center and scuffed. Being so tiny and worn, I doubt it would be impressive in hand. Regarding the rarity, you can find several unique or 2nd/3rd known coins in coming auctions that will sell for much less. So is it the marketing story behind that makes it desirable/expensive? If you believe you can sell it with a markup, this could provide you with funds for several nicer coins. (and no, I am not the underbidder)

 

I'm not AJ but cannot refrain from jumping in here.

It's not a marketing story, it is the rare instance of preserved contemporary histories allowing us to know the exceptional circumstances of this coin's origin from an important time in ancient history. That is the desirable thing here. It's not about the quality of the coin's engraving, state of preservation, or whether a noncollector would be impressed with the coin's looks.

Yes there are large numbers of ancient coins with equal or greater rarity. It's not just about the rarity and I bet if a hundred more of these turned up, the prices would remain strong because of collector demand.

As for selling it to fund "several nicer coins"... have you looked through his collection? While not inexpensive, this coin was not a stretch. He can buy "several nicer coins" without selling this Athens gold.

Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion though... and now I've said mine

 

I did, it's the most expensive one in the collection and IMHO it looks like the sole paraphony in there (possibly along with the alexander the gr8 deka).

 

You are simply wrong, but his collection isn't really about buying the most expensive coins anyway. It's about buying coins which are rich in history and which tell the story of the ancient world.

 

From a purely artistic standpoint, you are absolutely correct: it is far from the most beautiful ancient coin and it most certainly is not impressive in hand. But if you put it into its historic context, it's a completely different story.

As TIF has said, it isn't marketing: this is an exceptionally well documented type with mint records, poets including references in their plays, and a pivotal moment in history being illustrated by the coin. There are definitely many types which are over-hyped and oversold through their marketing - this is not one.

A friend of mine often uses the adage: "there's nothing as common as a rare coin". This coin isn't valuable because of its rarity - it's valuable because of its demand. Almost every auction has a handful of coins where very few are known but, combine that with the history of this type and the importance becomes evident.

There aren't many circumstances where one could say they have a piece of the Acropolis and such an integral part of the history of Athens. The history is unparalleled in Greek coinage.

It isn't my most expensive by a wide margin - it's in my top 10 in terms of cost but seventh or eighth, depending on exchange rates. But, the cost is just a practical consideration And, with Alexander the Great dekadrachms, you have to take what you can get, especially if you want a real one

Exactly

 

The history behind this coin is unassailable; that fact alone makes it one of the most significant ancient coins ever minted. As a collector for whom the history of ancient coins is one of the top two reason to collect, that would be sufficient to make this coin desirable regardless of its rarity.

Uh... to what "marketing story" are you referring? Who can possibly "market" a coin that has appeared and been sold privately or in auctions maybe 2 - 3 times in the last 30 - 40 years? Maybe you're thinking of Tiberius' "tribute penny" denarius?

Yes, everyone on this site clearly had already figured this out. It's reasonable to infer from your post that, if you actually have an interest in ancient coins, that interest tilts toward the commercial aspects of those coins, rather than historical or numismatic aspects. That's fine -- it would probably serve you well if you're a dealer -- but from the perspective of one who is primarily and solely a collector, this is simply an amazing coin.

 

I am referring to the story of the golden statues melt to mint this coin. Beats me why would sb care where the bullion to mint the coin came from. Apparently this is the selling point of this coin, that you are holding a piece of parthenon. So you are proud in the same way the British museum is proud for hosting the stolen caryatids.

PS. I am not the one who spent the first 2 pages referring to how cheap the coin hammered and how much more it would hammer in a better advertised auction and so on.

 

It's not just where the bullion came from but why it was needed. It's the history of Athens in crisis at a turning point in history. Perhaps my write up wasn't clear enough or maybe it would be worth studying more of the history of Athens. And, ultimately, if this isn't something you're interested in, that's fine by me. I'm glad we don't all buy the same coins as that would be horribly boring!

(And, price paid is just part of the challenge with acquiring it but is immaterial now as I will not sell it. This thread is by no means an advertisement or attempt to publicize the coin for sale)

 

Yah, the British Museum is overrated. I mean, it's just rocks 'n' metal 'n' stuff. All came from the Big Bang anyway, amiright?

 

It's pretty much reliable, documented history that the gold for these coins came from statues that did, in reality, exist in ancient times. That's history, not marketing. It's understandable if that history doesn't interest you (there is plenty of history that doesn't interest me and would not compel me to purchase an otherwise uninteresting coin) but that just highlights the differences between your interest in ancient coins vs. other collectors' interests.

On a related note about this coin: I happen to think the two owls on the obverse are both amusing and artistically rendered, especially for the small size, and I don't dismiss the artistic appeal of this coin due to its condition. But again, that might not be an aspect of collecting ancient coins that appeals to you.

 

While I like the two owls, I also like the fact that Athens used a variety of owl poses that could help distinguish denominations. Most of these were repeated but I can't see many people mixing up most of them except for the obol and hemiobol (I never understood why they made both the same). Of course everyone seems compelled to have a tetradrachm but relatively few even know about the bronzes an minor silvers. Of course, budget keeps me out of the gold (all gold, not just Athenian) but the fact that Athens only did gold under the most dire circumstances makes them especially interesting to me. I don't even know anyone now that is interested in non-tetradrachm Athenians. Is there someone here who is trying for a denomination set?

 

Judging from your posts in the Clio thread, it appears you have a whole lot of hatred for people who have more money to spend on coins than you do. You seem to want to get back at them by trying to ridicule their purchases or buying strategies.

I am one of those collectors who also collects for the story, rather than for profit. I paid more for this coin than some high-grade Athens tet because of the very-specific history attached to this coin. It was used to confiscate the wealth and power of China’s elite, meaning it was owned by one of the richest people in China at the time. I also got it for about half of the going rate, but that is immaterial because I won’t sell it and because it allowed me to afford it. Am I just some money-centered hype junkie because I bought this coin? I would think not. And @AncientJoe is not either.

 

Coins, in general, are marked by anonymity. This makes sense given their utilitarian function. It is generally impossible to know who held them, and where the metal came from. It is very rare to know who engraved the dies. While we often know roughly when a given coin was minted, it is very rare to be able to pinpoint specifically exactly when and why. The search for the information that breaks down that anonymity is what numismatics is about at its core.

My main area of collecting is coins whose dies were engraved by Renaissance artists. The knowledge of who actually made the art on my coin gives me a tangible link to history. Several of my coins were described or mentioned in contemporary sources like Cellini and Vasari--imagine one described in a play by aristophanes!

I think it is remarkable to have a coin (again, something that is by its very nature anonymous) that can be described so specifically. Many coins may represent significant moments in history, but few are literally part of the material fabric of an historical event. Just the fact of being able to know where the "bullion" for an ancient coin came from would be exciting in and of itself, knowing exactly what piece of ancient art was used to create it is incredible. (A side note: the vast majority of ancient art has been lost, and is only known through descriptions. It is equally cool to know exactly how something was lost and what became of it. I am reminded of the ransom coinage minted by Clement VII to pay off Charles V that was made from the melted down treasures of the Vatican.)

Amazing coin @AncientJoe

 

@TypeCoin971793 As I was writing my reply, I almost linked to your write up of that coin as an amazing example of specificity.

 

Not me, but I was very pleased to pick up this rare tetartemorion (4mm, 0.16g):

Athens was the last holdout to use tiny silver fractions rather than bronze for smaller denominations. (They are hard to date, however.)

 

This coin is incredible, Ancient Joe!

Keep up the great work!

Erin

 

You know @pprp , I (like most here) will probably never be able to afford many of the coins that @AncientJoe , @TIF , @IdesOfMarch01 , etc., have in their collections. But instead of trying to put these people down for having the means to buy those types of coins, you should be happy that they decided to come here to share the excitement, the history, the knowledge, and significance of these beautiful high-end coins. They are certainly under no obligation to do so, so I would think if you were a true collector you'd be thrilled at the sight of these coins, and appreciative that their owners were generous enough to share their high-end coins with the rest of the collectors here (rather than being all secretive and never sharing the knowledge of these beauties with us average/low end collectors.)

I don't think a real ancient coins enthusiast would say the things you've said. You sound almost trollish, but as I don't know you I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.