[Poll-21] #4 ancientcoinguru vs #13 frankjg (Round 2) CIT 2018

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Curtisimo, Aug 19, 2018.

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Please vote on the coin you think wins in each of the following categories. 3 votes per voter

Poll closed Aug 22, 2018.
  1. Eye appeal (#4 ancientcoinguru)

    53 vote(s)
    94.6%
  2. Best bargain (#4 ancientcoinguru)

    23 vote(s)
    41.1%
  3. Historical or numismatic interest (#4 ancientcoinguru)

    45 vote(s)
    80.4%
  4. Eye appeal (#13 frankjg)

    3 vote(s)
    5.4%
  5. Best bargain (#13 frankjg)

    33 vote(s)
    58.9%
  6. Historical or numismatic interest (#13 frankjg)

    11 vote(s)
    19.6%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish)

    Hello everyone and welcome to Round 2 of the 2018 CoinTalk Imperator Tournament! If you are unaware of the tournament I invite you to get caught up with all the fun in the master thread;

    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/an...annual-coin-imperator-tournament-2018.320328/

    Bracket-R2.jpg

    A big thank you to all of our participants. Without further ado…

    ............................................................​

    #4 @ancientcoinguru

    ancientcoinguru-2.jpg
    KINGS of THRACE. Rhoemetalkes I
    11 BC-12 AD
    Minted in Thrace
    AE25 – 12.72 grams
    Obv: BΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΡΟΙΜΕΤΑΛΚΟΥ, Jugate busts of Rhoemetalkes I and his Queen Pythodoris right.
    Rev: ΚΑΙΣΑΡΟΣ ΣΕΒΑΣΤΟΥ, Jugate busts of Augustus and Livia right, before Capricorn holding globe
    Reference: SGIC 5397, RPC I 1708, Youroukova 185.


    Price: $235

    Why it’s Cool:
    Ancient coins are fascinating, and I suspect all of us have more than one theme that captures our interest. A primary collecting focus for me is coins issued by, or showing a portrait of, historical women. I also collect portrait coins and jugate busts, both topics I find intriguing. This coin from the client kingdom of Thrace has it all! Two ancient women on one coin. A total of 4 historical portraits. Not one, but 2 jugate busts of 2 historical ruling couples. And to top it off, that is such a cool Capricorn on the reverse! Holding a globe, no less :). All on a bronze with a beautiful green patina. I was blown away when I saw this coin, and just had to have it.

    Bargain: This coin was originally sold by CNG in 2003 for $90 plus fees, and again in 2004 for $131 plus fees. Ignoring the EF coin sold in their printed auction in 2014 for $850, CNG has sold only 1 other of these coins, a near VF in 2012 for $170 plus fees. I felt the price I paid was very good, considering the condition and scarcity of the coin.

    History: Rhoemetalkes I was son of Kotys and Sapaean. He had a long political career, including guardianship of the children of Kotys III. Rhoemetalkes was made ruler of the Kingdom of Thrace in 11 BC by Augustus. Tacitus, a Roman historian, described Rhoematalkes I as “attractive and civilized.” As King of Thrace, he governed the country well for almost a quarter of a century until his death in AD 12. Throughout his reign, Rhoemetalkes remained a loyal ally of the Romans.

    Queen Pythodoris I was his wife, and the mother of his heir. Very little is known about her, except for her portrait on coins such as mine.

    On the reverse of my coin is a jugate bust of Augustus and Livia. Since you all know who Augustus and Livia were, I will spare you the historical background. But will mention that several Augustan coins featured a Capricorn, a mythical animal with the forepart of a goat and the tail of a fish. I can only guess that this coin was a tribute to Augustus, and the Capricorn was used to show that “he’s got the whole world in his hands”.

    ............................................................​

    #13 @frankjg

    frankjg-2.jpg
    Attribution:
    Kingdom of Naples and Sicily
    Charles I of Anjou
    1266-1285
    Billon Denaro, Brindisi Mint
    0.547g, 16mm
    OBV: +DEI GRA REX (dot) SICIL (dot), KAR (AR ligate), (omega) above
    REV: DVC APVL ' ET PRIC CAP, Cross pattee, the horizontal beam a heraldic label with four pendants, a lis in each lower quarter


    Price: $45

    Why it's Cool:
    This coin was struck for Charles I of Anjou during a time of significant changes within the Kingdom of Naples and Sicily. Charles I was forced out of Sicily during the Sicilian Vespers, which was one of the bloodiest and swiftest uprisings in history. The Sicilian population was fed up with the treatment they had been receiving from Charles' bureaucrats and decided to rise up and overthrow the French on Easter Monday, March 30th, 1282. By the end of April, Sicily was firmly in control of the rebels and Peter III of Aragon was invited by the rebels to become King of Sicily.

    From Wiki:

    "To the sound of the bells messengers ran through the city calling on the men of Palermo to rise against the oppressor. At once the streets were filled with angry armed men, crying "Death to the French" ("moranu li Francisi" in Sicilian language). Every Frenchman they met was struck down. They poured into the inns frequented by the French and the houses where they dwelt, sparing neither man, woman nor child. Sicilian girls who had married Frenchmen perished with their husbands. The rioters broke into the Dominican and Franciscan convents; and all the foreign friars were dragged out and told to pronounce the word "ciciri", whose sound the French tongue could never accurately reproduce. Anyone who failed the test was slain… By the next morning some two thousand French men and women lay dead; and the rebels were in complete control of the city.[9]"

    ............................................................​

    A Gentle Reminder
    Round 1 went about as well as anyone could have hoped from the perspective of keeping the commentary fun, interesting and friendly. It would be a challenge to run a tournament of this type on almost any other board but with the great people here on CT it has been both an honor and a pleasure. Lets try to keep up with the perfect score in the friendliness department by concentrating comments on why you liked an entry instead of why you didn't like the other.

    Remember that everyone gets 3 votes to choose which coin you think comes out on top in each of the three categories. With that I will open the thread for comments, opinions, coin pile-ons and random posting of coin things as you see fit.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2018
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  3. Ancient Aussie

    Ancient Aussie Well-Known Member

    Both nice coins but I can't go past the Rhoematalkes I, haven't seen too many of the larger varieties and four portraits with fantastic patina. My only Rhoematalkes I, bought for augustus.jpg the Augustus portrait.
     
    Justin Lee, Andres2, ominus1 and 6 others like this.
  4. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    On my discount version ($25 from Brian Kritt), Livia did not show up. Three heads are a lot more common than four. There are coins with four large heads, one additional small head on Rhoematalkes' side and the capricorn as on the contest coin. I have had that on the want list for a while but am not willing to pay so it is not likely to happen.
    My coin has a weak c/m on Rhoematalkes' neck. See the one on the CNG link below:
    https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=80543
    Has anyone seen an identifiable strike of this mark?
    pz2750bb1197.jpg
     
    Andres2, ominus1, Bing and 5 others like this.
  5. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana

    That's a beautiful example, ACG! I have one of these, not as nice as yours, and am looking out for the one with the additional small head that Doug mentioned... I believe those are even harder to find.

    00-3190207.jpg
     
  6. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    Two great & historic coins, I love this matchup! I'm still looking for a Livia portrait, that is a particularly nice one acg... plus three other bonus portraits, awesome! The closest I have to the Sicilian coin is this one minted by Frederick II, father of Manfred who was kicked out of Sicily by monsieur Charles. I think Freddy would have been happy with how things eventually turned out. :)

    Screen Shot 2018-08-20 at 2.11.20 PM.jpg
    Billon denaro c. 1225, Frederick II, King of Sicily (1198-1250) and Holy Roman Emperor (1220-1250). IRL SICIL REX, Crowned head left. // F.IPERATOR, Cross pattée with 3 pellets in 1st and 3rd quarters.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
  7. Cucumbor

    Cucumbor Well-Known Member

    I cant pile on with a Naples and Sicily kingdom of any sort but a Rhoematalkes is something I have (only three portraits though) :

    [​IMG]

    Q
     
  8. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    @ancientcoinguru-- fabulous coin! I'd love to snag one of those someday.

    Q-- gorgeous three-header :)
     
    Curtisimo and Cucumbor like this.
  9. frankjg

    frankjg Well-Known Member

    I even had to give my eye appeal vote to ACG.. that is a beautiful coin.
     
    Severus Alexander and Curtisimo like this.
  10. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish)

    Still some time left to vote on this match up! It will close in a little over an hour and a half.
     
  11. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish)

    Another match comes to a close as we get closer to a clear picture of next round.

    Results
    #4 @ancientcoinguru - 121 Winner
    #13 @frankjg - 47

    Frank comes out ahead on bargain with his cool Sicilian Medieval coin while acg takes the eye appeal and interest categories to come out on top overall! Thank you to both players. Great coins and great match.

    @ancientcoinguru will advance to face the winner of the @Ryro vs @Terence Cheesman match that is currently deadlocked :eek: good times :)
     
  12. Cucumbor

    Cucumbor Well-Known Member

    I'm afraid the poor Charles couldn't win against four people
    Congrats to both for a cool match up

    Q
     
    Severus Alexander and Curtisimo like this.
  13. frankjg

    frankjg Well-Known Member

    Nice job ACG. Very much deserved.
     
    Curtisimo and Severus Alexander like this.
  14. ancientcoinguru

    ancientcoinguru Well-Known Member

    First, let me offer an apology to everyone for being absent (sick) while round 2 was going on. I am glad everyone liked my provincial bronze with the 4 portraits. Your positive comments are very much appreciated:happy:

    @frankjg I thought for sure I would lose to you, since medieval coins are my current collecting passion, and that’s a very nice billion denaro with striking details! I would happily buy such a well centered medieval for $45; you paid a great price.

    @Severus Alexander marvelous face on the obverse of Frederick I, I’m going to have to hunt for one.

    I also am on the lookout for a bronze with the 5 heads. In the last 15 years, CNG has sold 6 of these coins with the 4 heads in their e-auctions – 3 similar to my coin, and 3 with the diminutive bust of Kotys IV. So both styles appear to be coins that are not often on the market.
     
  15. marchal steel

    marchal steel Active Member

    severus alex--- I like your coins from sicily. I picked up some recently; it has a cross on the obverse, and a fleur-de-lis on the reverse? pretty odd, don't know if you've seen anything like it.
     
    Severus Alexander likes this.
  16. FitzNigel

    FitzNigel Medievalist

    that happens when Charles of Anjou becomes the king of Sicily through marriage (in 1267). Feel free to share a picture! Welcome to CoinTalk!
     
    Ryro, Severus Alexander and DonnaML like this.
  17. DonnaML

    DonnaML Well-Known Member

    I would also suggest posting a photo, and starting a new thread to do so.
     
    Severus Alexander and FitzNigel like this.
  18. marchal steel

    marchal steel Active Member

    Thank you Donna--- I'll do that perhaps tomorrow.
     
    DonnaML likes this.
  19. marchal steel

    marchal steel Active Member

    Will do, and thanks Fitz
    Marchal
     
  20. marchal steel

    marchal steel Active Member

    Hi Donna and Fitz- I'm kind of new to this regarding posting, adding pix and whatnot, but I'll try and get this through. BTW, the coins are about 15mm and 0.5-0.6 grams. 9F8449B5-E603-4FAF-A42A-2F0C1C775E80.jpeg BF54B755-6F58-441F-B134-605B99783E37.jpeg
     
    Curtisimo, Edessa and DonnaML like this.
  21. marchal steel

    marchal steel Active Member

    Geez, I think I got lucky and it went through!
     
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