[Poll-19] #7 BenSi vs #10 Cucumbor (Round 2) CIT 2018

Hello everyone and welcome to Round 2 of the 2018 CoinTalk Imperator Tournament! If you are unaware of the tournament I invite you to get caught up with all the fun in the master thread;

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/ancients-it’s-time-the-second-annual-coin-imperator-tournament-2018.320328/



A big thank you to all of our participants. Without further ado…

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#7 @BenSi


JOHN II AE TETARTERON S-1953V DOC 14 Zervos Variation
OBV Half-length figure of Christ, bearded and nimbate, wearing tunic and kolobion; holds gospels open in l. hand
REV. Bust of emperor wearing stemma, divitision and chlamys; holds in r. hand jeweled scepter on a long shaft and in l. Globus cruciger.
This is a variation of the normal SBCV-1953 first published by Orestes Zervos in Jan 2005, the difference is very subtle, Christ is normally depicted as a bust not a half length figure. The coin was minted in Thessalonica and unlike my last John II submission contains no silver.
Weight 4.00 gm
Size 21 mm

Price: $26

Why It’s Cool:
John II Komnenos, also known as John the Good, ruled the Eastern Roman Empire from 1118-1143. He was the son of Alexius I. His seals bore the word porphyrogennetos, meaning “born in the purple”.

For some additional information about John II and his interesting family life see the write up from my Round 1 entry here.

As Eastern Roman art evolved through the centuries, the portraits returned to a head on view (as seen in Greek coinage) instead of the Roman Imperial profile bust view. The art of the coins also became much less defined. This was not from a lack of talent but rather from a philosophy; the revival of the Greek theory of Spiritualism, which held that true beauty exists from within. It’s for that reason the coins became far more abstract and subtler in the characterization of the Emperor. This coin is an excellent example and has a beauty in its simplicity.

Numismatic interest: The other notable fact regarding this coin is that it is a variation, when variations simply did not exist. The Eastern Roman empire was so strict in its rituals that any variation of coinage would have been unacceptable to the government. This coin depicts Christ as a half length figure when he was normally depicted as a bust. Any variations of Eastern Roman coinage are treasures for any collection. This is a variation of the normal SBCV-1953 and was first published by Orestes Zervos in Jan 2005.

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#10 @Cucumbor


Gallienus, Antoninianus
Rome mint, 7th officina, AD 267-268
GALLIENVS AVG, radiate head of Gallienus right
APOLLINI CONS AVG, Centaur walking right, drawing bow. Z at exergue
2.41 gr
Ref : Cohen # 72, RCV # 10177, Göbl # 735b, RIC # 163, Cmr # 2a7

Price: $14

Why It’s Cool:
This antoninianus has been struck on a flaked planchet, somewhat irregular, with an area of flatness on the emperor’s portrait and even a scar on his face. Yet it’s a very pleasant coin with a most appealing reverse type and a wonderful patina. Under its appearance this coin has a soul. Remember, when you first saw his movies, isn’t this exactly how Chaplin’s Tramp conquered your heart and the world?



Gallienus ruled as co-emperor with his father, Valerianus, until 260 CE when Valerianus was famously defeated and taken prisoner by the Parthians under Shapur I. From 260 CE onward Gallienus was the sole emperor of the Roman Empire. During the time of his sole reign (260-268 CE) he had to face one of the most challenging (to keep it PC, but it was a fricken mess) periods of the Roman Empire: multiple barbarous invasions, revolts led by Aureolus in Italy and Postumus in Gaul, and, last but not least, a monetary crisis.

In 267 CE Gallienus decided to try to convince the gods to be "on his side" by issuing a series of coins at the Rome mint known as "the zoo series." The coins invoked Apollo, Diana, Hercules, Jupiter, Mercury, and Neptune and featured different animals on the reverse, both real or mythological (goat, panther, hippocamp, centaur, gryphon, etc….)

This coin's reverse inscription invokes Apollo and reads "to Apollo, preserver of the Augustus". Additionally, the centaur Chiron was said to be a student of Apollo in Greco-Roman mythology which makes the reverse imagery all the more interesting and appropriate.

Here’s an overview of the zoo series coins currently in my collection.



This zoo series is very popular nowadays among ancient coin collectors because of a well identified theme (such as the travel series of Hadrian or the Divi series of Trajan Decius). It has multiple distinctive and cool reverses, obtainable at decent prices because of their good availability on the market. The set is "doable" by any collector, even on a budget, because while some of them are scarce, none are exceedingly rare to the point you wouldn’t find one in the next ten years.

However, good strike and excellent style are seldom seen in this series, resulting from the troubled period they were issued: it’s also part of their history and a reflection of the political situation of the time.

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A Gentle Reminder
Round 1 went about as well as anyone could have hoped from the perspective of keeping the commentary fun, interesting and friendly. It would be a challenge to run a tournament of this type on almost any other board but with the great people here on CT it has been both an honor and a pleasure. Lets try to keep up with the perfect score in the friendliness department by concentrating comments on why you liked an entry instead of why you didn't like the other.

Remember that everyone gets 3 votes to choose which coin you think comes out on top in each of the three categories. With that I will open the thread for comments, opinions, coin pile-ons and random posting of coin things as you see fit.

 

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I never thought Id find a Byzantine coin more interesting than a Roman coin....this thread proved me wrong. Both are fantastic little coins, but the Byzantine with that Christ variety and the nice earthern brown/green patina really caught my eyes.

 

I predict a close and fun match here. Win or lose no one can doubt that @BenSi is representing Eastern Roman / Byzantine coins like a boss

Q has such a wide collecting interest it's always fun to see what he comes up with.

Just got to find some popcorn now

 

There's no doubt that both coins were great bargains, but I gave my vote to @BenSi in this category because not only was it an incredible steal for this rarity, it was his superior knowledge that surely enabled him to snag it at a ridiculously low price. Well done sir!! (And you too, Q... nice curveball!)

 

Both are excellent entries.
Cucumbor's coin certainly has soul.. as to it's defects: I think they reflect the pressure on the empire at the time and add to its personality (plus it's 850+ years older than Bensi's entry...haha)... . Beautiful patina and well, centaurs are awesome.

Bensi's coin has an excellent obverse portait of christ , nice toning and that variation!

Will be a fun one to watch!!

 

Very good entry @BenSi, that bust variation is awesome
I now have to cross my fingers and hope the so many pagan gods Gallienus honored are really on his side

Q

 

Can never have too many Centaurs!!


Capitoline Centaurs
The sculptures were found together at Hadrian's Villa in Tivoli by Monsignor Giuseppe Alessandro Furietti in December 1736; they were the outstanding pieces of his collection of antiquities, which he refused to give to Pope Benedict XIV— at the cost of a cardinal's hat. Furietti was eventually created cardinal priest, by Pope Clement XIII in the consistory of 24 September 1759. After the cardinal's death, his heirs sold the centaurs and the Furietti mosaic of four drinking doves for 14,000 scudi, and they have been in the Capitoline Museum ever since.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furietti_Centaurs

 

Nice photos! I remember seeing these and thinking they were really cool. For my money the Capitoline Museum beats the pants off the Vatican Museum. Plus it was MUCH less crowded...

Have you been?

 

No.. I have never had the pleasure. Someday I hope.

 

Heh. That gave me a chuckle. Didn't work out for Gallienus in the end, but who knows, they may favour you more than they did him, Q.

I don't collect Byzantine and have a soft spot for Gallienus, but both coins are obviously excellent examples, making choosing which to vote for in each category really tough.

 

This is a close match-up. Both have excellent eye-appeal for their type, each was a bargain, and there's numismatic and historic interest to each as well. Tough decision.

I split my vote, but I love a zoo-series coin. Here's my centaur from that series:

 

Not looking good for the Eastern empire. Looks like it will again lose to the west. Its 1203 A.D. All over again. Nice submission Cucumbor.

 

I second the thought that they are both very good coins at very good prices. Once again we see how much history and interest can be crammed into one inexpensive ancient coin. What can you get in the US series for $26? I hope some US-coin collectors read this thread and realize how cool ancient coins can be!

 

Hard to decide but I just voted...both are excellent examples

 

Lots. I got this for less than $10. The reverse die was upside down and the two dies clashed in that orientation. The obverse also has a massive rim cud.



Some ancients can be just as overpriced as US coins. Case in point: Athens owl tets. They are more common than 1909 S VDB’s and often more expensive at the same condition levels.

 

That's a very nice 3-cent piece at a very good price (unusually low?). The history of the idea of a three-cent denomination is surely interesting. A small collection of US coins like that at prices like that would be worthwhile. Nevertheless, for history the two ancient coins in the original post have a much greater connection to stories from regular history (as opposed to just the history of coinage), which can be interesting if one likes gossip about ancient times.

 

I buy coins that tell a good story. That is why I have sole the bulk of my US coins in favor of ancient coins. (My wantlist of ancient coins is much larger than for US coins.) Given $1000, I would buy a VF Athens tet over a VF 1909 S VDB in a heartbeat.

Now if it is cheap (<$25) and interesting, I will buy it, such as the 3¢ I posted above.

 

Challenging match! Both coins would be welcome in my collection and I only have one Byzantine coin.

 

In the US market would the clash and cud lower the value or raise it?
Mine came from the days I was selling duplicates from circulation at a local shop to get type coins I did not have. That stopped when I 'discovered' ancients in the late 50's or early 60's but I never sold the things.

 

They might raise it to the right buyer. But what raises the value is the 180° rotated reverse