[Poll-17] #15 Jay GT4 vs #31 TypeCoin (Round 2) CIT 2018

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Curtisimo, Aug 16, 2018.

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Please vote on the coin you think wins in each of the following categories. 3 votes per voter

Poll closed Aug 19, 2018.
  1. Eye appeal (#15 Jay GT4)

    44 vote(s)
    80.0%
  2. Best bargain (#15 Jay GT4)

    31 vote(s)
    56.4%
  3. Historical or numismatic interest (#15 Jay GT4)

    36 vote(s)
    65.5%
  4. Eye appeal (#31 TypeCoin)

    10 vote(s)
    18.2%
  5. Best bargain (#31 TypeCoin)

    24 vote(s)
    43.6%
  6. Historical or numismatic interest (#31 TypeCoin)

    20 vote(s)
    36.4%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish)

    Hello everyone and welcome to Round 2 of the 2018 CoinTalk Imperator Tournament! If you are unaware of the tournament I invite you to get caught up with all the fun in the master thread;

    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/ancients-it’s-time-the-second-annual-coin-imperator-tournament-2018.320328/

    Bracket-R2.jpg

    A big thank you to all of our participants. Please review the below entries and cast your votes accordingly. Without further ado…

    ............................................................​

    #15 @Jay GT4

    Jay GT4-2.jpg
    Marcus Lepidus Imperator
    Laureate head of Roma (?) right
    M LEPIDVS
    Below equestrian statue of M. Aemelius Lepidus (consul 187 and 175 BC) right, carrying trophy
    Rome, 61 BC
    3.79g
    Rare!
    Sear 371, RPC 419/1, CRR 827-828b
    Freed from a NGC Holder, graded strike 4/5; surface 4/5.


    Price: $250

    Why It’s Cool:
    The History: While there are other common Republican coins struck by people named Marcus Lepidus which look similar, this one is actually quite special and rare. This coin is by the Imperator Marcus Lepidus.

    Marcus Lepidus struck this coin early in his career as moneyer and well before he became a member of the 2nd Triumvirate. The reverse commemorates his ancestor M. Amelius Lepidus who was consul in 187 BC and again in 175 BC. This coin was struck in 61 BC.

    Marcus Lepidus was married to Brutus’ sister (yes that Brutus). He was an early important supporter of Julius Caesar and later Antony. After Julius Caesar’s assassination he was instrumental in brokering the reconciliation between Antony and Octavian which led to the formalization of the 2nd triumvirate. Lepidus was named Consul and left in charge of Italy while Antony and Octavian chased after Brutus and Cassius. He was also confirmed as Pontifex Maximus (Chief Priest). In time he would be pushed aside by Antony and Octavian and only be allowed to govern North Africa. After an ill fated attempt to seize Sicily, his troops defected to Octavian and he was striped of all power and exiled to Cerceii. Despite this, he would be allowed to keep his post as Pontifex Maximus until his death. The office then became the sole procession of the Emperors.

    The coin: I got this one on ebay from a seller who was taking offers. Originally listed at over $600 I put in a low ball offer of $250 in hopes of negotiating and was pleasantly surprised it was accepted. Coins of this type and in this condition are listed for over $900 (If you can find one for sale). Currently there is only one on Vcoins for $975 and one sold in Gemini 14 for $550 plus fees. The coin comes in 2 variations, one with the legend AN•XV•PR•H•O•C•S• and like this one, without the legend but with the exergue M LEPIDVS

    The Break out: As a bonus this coin came entombed in an NGC Holder graded Strike: 4/5; Surface: 4/5. The first thing I did was to free Lepidus from his plastic prison and set him in his proper place in my Imperators coin tray beside Antony, Octavian and Caesar.

    ............................................................​

    #31 @TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin-2w.jpg
    Xin Dynasty, Wang Mang (10-14 AD)
    Obverse: 大布黃千 Da Bu Huang Qian(“Great Spade Valued 1000”)
    Reverse: Blank
    H-9.29 (normally 60 x 25 mm), FD 484/5
    Weight: 13.53g
    Size: 53 x 23mm


    Price: $40

    Why It’s Cool:
    There are few rulers who are best known for their numismatic legacy, and fewer still who are also remembered for nearly destroying their civilization. Wang Mang is one of these. Wang Mang was born into one of the most powerful families in China and was related to the ruling family and the emperor himself. Despite this, Wang Mang became an introspective and thrifty Confucian scholar, abhorring the lavish and wasteful lifestyles enjoyed by the rest of his family when so much of China’s population could barely feed themselves. He would also give away much of his excess wealth, making him extremely popular among the commoners and elite alike. Wang was said to become humbler the further he was promoted to positions of power. As his power grew, so did his popularity.

    TC-1.jpg
    Wang Mang (image from Wikipedia)

    Wang Mang deftly used his family connections, his popularity, and some questionable manipulation of the traditional imperial succession to take advantage of every situation and eventually forced himself to become acting emperor for a child whom he hand-picked to be emperor. With this power, he introduced fiduciary knife coins in 7 AD to confiscate all of the gold of the nobility. He used knives because they hearkened to the Zhou Dynasty, what Confucians considered to be the ideal standard for government and society. Within two years he demonetized these coins, destroying the wealth and power of the nobility overnight. With this, he took over the throne in 9 AD as emperor and established his Xin (“New”) Dynasty.

    Wang Mang immediately instituted many radical reforms, namely:

    1. The abolition of slavery through a ruinous tax on slave owners.

    2. The nationalization of land, essentially making the government own all of it.

    3. Distributing the land evenly among the population, so each family would have around 5 acres.

    4. Families were grouped into “chings,” which consisted of 6-8 families. This was an attempt to return to the traditional Zhou “well field” system.

    5. A national bank that will offer fair interest rates to everyone in the population.

    6. Government intervention in the markets to control and stabilize prices. It would buy up good when they are cheap to raise the price, and it would sell the excess during hard times to lower the price.

    7. A coinage system with 15 denominations ranging from a value of 1 to 1000. The value 1, 10, 20, 30, 40, and 50 coins were in the shape of familiar cash coins. The value 100, 200, 300, ... , 1000 coins were in the shape of spades, emulating Zhou spade coinage. In addition, there were 12 other traditional denominations using the following conversions:

    TC-2.jpg

    Wang Mang’s justification for these coins: “If all currency is large, when one needs a small amount it is not available. If it is small [like the Wu Zhus currently in circulation], transporting it is troublesome and expensive. If large and small exist, then their use is convenient.” This sounds a lot like the currency system in place today, showing just how far ahead of his time he was.

    8. An annual income tax of 10% on money earned or crop yields per working individual.

    The sudden and drastic changes to a society built off maintaining tradition were met with much resentment and opposition. Some of the above reforms failed so horribly that they were rescinded in 12 AD. Wang Mang tried to force the populace to use his new coins and abandon the Wu Zhu. Given the track record with the knife coins, the populace understandably did not trust this new coinage. Wang Mang responded by making the use and possession of Wu Zhus punishable by death. Since no one wanted the new coins, trade and thus the entire economy ground to a halt. Millions starved, and many rebellions began. These were desperate times for all.

    (This is running long, so to catch the rest of the story of failure and degeneration, visit my thread: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/go...ory-of-the-rise-and-fall-of-wang-mang.315047/ )

    So, with the ownership and use of the plentiful Western Han “Wu Zhus” punishable by death, they became great fodder for being melted down and cast into counterfeits of Wang Mang’s highly-inflated coins. Due to the amount of profit gleaned from counterfeiting these coins, counterfeiting was rampant. Wang Mang initially responded by executing anyone caught counterfeiting. As this did not have any effect, Wang ordered that the counterfeiter and his entire family would become slaves of the state. This also did not work, so the punishment was escalated to the entire “ching” of six families being held responsible for the counterfeiter, and they would all become slaves of the state even if only one member was caught. It is said that 7 of every 10 people sentenced to slavery died from the hardship. (As an aside, Wang Mang also tried to curb counterfeiting by making it illegal to own bronze or charcoal. Needless to say, this order did not last long.)

    So, about the coin. It is a value-1000 spade from the coinage reform of 10 AD. However, it is much smaller than normal issues, and the style is slightly different (namely the flatness of the strokes and the malformation of the rim. From this, I conclude that it is a contemporary counterfeit. This is significant and exciting because it represents the desperation China’s people felt at this time, especially given the draconian punishments should the counterfeiter be caught. Making this coin involved a sheer amount of risk. Holding this coin makes me wonder the fate of it maker: was he ever caught? How severe was his punishment? Did his family suffer? What about his neighbors? This is what makes this coin so cool. This spade type generally sells for $90-120. I was willing to spend that much or even more for this coolness factor, so I considered $40 to be an absolute bargain.

    Here is a picture of this coin sitting next to an official issue so you can see the differences in size and style.

    TC-3.jpg

    ............................................................​

    A Gentle Reminder
    Round 1 went about as well as anyone could have hoped from the perspective of keeping the commentary fun, interesting and friendly. It would be a challenge to run a tournament of this type on almost any other board but with the great people here on CT it has been both an honor and a pleasure. Lets try to keep up with the perfect score in the friendliness department by concentrating comments on why you liked an entry instead of why you didn't like the other.

    Remember that everyone gets 3 votes to choose which coin you think comes out on top in each of the three categories. With that I will open the thread for comments, opinions, coin pile-ons and random posting of coin things as you see fit.
     
    Smojo, Ryro, Jay GT4 and 5 others like this.
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  3. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    Jay GT4, AnYangMan and Curtisimo like this.
  4. AnYangMan

    AnYangMan Well-Known Member

    What a great matchup @Curtisimo! @Jay GT4's denarius is a historic beauty, but I love the fact that another Chinese coin is being played. Well done to the both of you!
     
    Curtisimo and TypeCoin971793 like this.
  5. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I would have appreciated a clue on how to tell a 1000 from a 100.
     
    Curtisimo likes this.
  6. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    I forgot to mention, Wang Mang set the value of gold at 10000 cash per Jin (~250g) of gold. That means the value-1000 spade was worth 1-2 times its weight in gold!
     
    Curtisimo likes this.
  7. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    2 ways:

    1. Size. Each denomination got pregressively bigger.
    2. Inscription. 千 Means 1000, while 一百 means 100.

    This should help:

    2D88884B-B22F-4AF9-AE85-6BF44898AF2D.jpeg
     
  8. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    Both excellent examples. Going to be hard to decide once again.
     
    Curtisimo likes this.
  9. akeady

    akeady Well-Known Member

    Interesting coins :) My first purchase of 2018 was a Lepidus (seller's pic), so I have a soft spot for them!
    lg_LepidusDenarius.jpg
     
    TheRed, Ryro, Andres2 and 7 others like this.
  10. Cucumbor

    Cucumbor Well-Known Member

    A Lepidus like that would be welcomed in my collection.
    Here's the one I already have

    [​IMG]
    Lepidus and Octavian, Denarius Dminted in Italy, 42 BC
    LEPIDVS PONT MAX III V R P C, bare head of Lepidus right (NT and MA in monograms)
    C CAESAR IMPIII VIR R P C, bare head of Octavian right (MP in monogram)
    3.78 gr
    Ref : HCRI # 140, RCV # 1523, Cohen # 2

    The following from Forvm catalog :
    "Lepidus was a faithful follower of Julius Caesar, and he served as Praetor and Consul. When Caesar was assassinated, Lepidus was in charge of the cavalry and commanded a legion. This position secured him a place in the Second Triumvirate along Marc Antony and Octavian. His cut was Africa. When Octavian attacked Sextus Pompey's Sicily, Lepidus' ships and troops supported him. In an uninspired move, Lepidus thought he could force Octavian to leave him the island. The two armies separated and isolated skirmishes occurred, but soon the soldiers sick of yet another civil war, acknowledging Octavian's superiority deserted Lepidus en-masse. Lepidus left the island as a simple civilian, retaining only his priesthood, but he was the only defeated Imperator not to suffer a violent death."


    Nothing chinese to show I'm afraid

    Q
     
    TheRed, Ryro, Andres2 and 9 others like this.
  11. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    Nice Lepidus, Jay! I'd like to have one of that type :)

    Interesting history, @TypeCoin971793.
     
    Jay GT4, TypeCoin971793 and Curtisimo like this.
  12. Ancient Aussie

    Ancient Aussie Well-Known Member

    Congratulations to both entries two fantastic but totally different coins.
     
    Curtisimo likes this.
  13. R*L

    R*L Well-Known Member

    Very well played by both contenders, should be a great match!
     
    Curtisimo likes this.
  14. Jay GT4

    Jay GT4 Well-Known Member

    The 2nd time I go up against a Chinese "coin!" This will be tough!
     
    Curtisimo likes this.
  15. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    Nah. I doubt it.
     
    Curtisimo likes this.
  16. Jay GT4

    Jay GT4 Well-Known Member

    Lots of time... I squeaked through the last round. Plus I learned a lot of stuff from your post. Thanks!

    Great coin!
     
    TypeCoin971793 and Curtisimo like this.
  17. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

    Very good write-up @TypeCoin971793 ! An interesting coin for sure.

    Loved the Lepidus. Very cool reverse imagery.
     
    Curtisimo likes this.
  18. Ancient Aussie

    Ancient Aussie Well-Known Member

    Curtisimo likes this.
  19. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish)

    The Lepidus denarius is a great coin at a great price from a historical figure I am very familiar with. A fantastic play by @Jay GT4 ! He got my vote for eye appeal.

    The Wang Mang is cool for many other reasons. The history is just as rich and the stories just as fascinating. However, all that is supplemented by the fact that I am learning about a lot of it for the first time. The benefit, in my opinion, to many of the eastern coins being played is that a lot of collectors are reading these historical essays that might not otherwise have done so. For some people it's hard to vote against what is already well known, for me it's hard to vote against something I've just learned. For that reason @TypeCoin971793 has my interest vote.

    I will need to research more to come to a conclusion on the bargain but to me they both seem to be great bargains!
     
  20. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Under 9.30, what is meant by "Distinguish from 15.160"?

    This may not be the best place to ask this but I like the idea of keeping the contest threads on page one where more people will see them and vote.
     
    Curtisimo and Cucumbor like this.
  21. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    The Huo Bu was copied in iron about 900 years later and had a very distinctive style. 15.160 refers to that later type.
     
    Curtisimo likes this.
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