[Poll-8] #1 Ajax vs #32 zumbly (Round 1) CIT 2018

Welcome to Round 1 of CIT 2018! If you are unaware of the tournament I invite you to get caught up with all the fun on the following link:

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/ancients-it’s-time-the-second-annual-coin-imperator-tournament-2018.320328/



I want to give a special thank you to the participants for volunteering to play the game. We have a great group of people here at CT.

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#1 @Ajax


Seleukid Kingdom. Seleukos I Nikator 312-281 BC.
Seleukeia on Tigris. 296/5- 281 BC.
Drachm AR 15mm., 4,14g.
Laureate head of Zeus right / ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΣΕΛΕΥΚΟΥ, Athena, brandishing spear and shield, in elephant quadriga right.

Price: $200

Why It’s Cool:
In 305-303 BC Seleukos waged an unsuccessful war against Chandragupta Maurya of the Mauyra Empire (India). As part of a peace deal at the end of the war Seleukos ceded a large portion of his eastern territories to the Maurya and is said to have married Chandragupta's daughter. In return he was gifted 500 war elephants by Chandragupta.

These elephants would play a pivotal role for Seleukos in the Battle of Ipsus. The Battle of Ipsus, part of the Wars of the Diadochi, was fought in 301 BC between a coalition of Lysimachos, Cassander and Seuleukos against Antigonus and his son Demetrios. Although defeated, Demetrios was able to escape. Antigonus was not so lucky and died in battle from a volley of javelins. Antigonus' death put an end to any hope of reuniting Alexanders former empire and as such was a major turning point in world history.

The war elephants that Seleukos received from Chandragupta would play the decisive role in the battle as Seleukos was able to use them to isolate the powerful cavalry of the enemy. The elephants shown on the reverse of these coins are a reminder of Seleukos' part in the victory at Ipsus.

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#32 @zumbly


VESPASIAN
AR Denarius. 3.05g, 18.4mm. Rome mint, 21 October 69 - early 70. RIC 2; Cohen 226; BMC 35; Hendin 1479. O: IMP CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG, laureate head right. R: Judaea seated right on ground in attitude of mourning, trophy set on shields behind her; IVDAEA in exergue.

Price: $158

Why It's Cool:
This worn but to my eyes lovely denarius of Vespasian is one of my favorite purchases this year.

Commemorating the Roman victory during the First Jewish Revolt, and Titus's sacking of Jerusalem's Second Temple in AD 70, the propagandistic message of this series of coinage was so important to the Flavians that Emperor Vespasian and his sons continued issuing them for 25 years.

The iconography of this particular reverse type is both simple and hauntingly evocative - a female figure, representing Judaea, seated in lament under a Roman trophy. The imagery speaks not only of the conquering power of the Roman Empire, but also of the experience in defeat of a subjugated people, who may have lost as many as a million lives in just the city of Jerusalem alone.

In Isaiah prophecy of the fall of Jerusalem, written some 700 years before the events, we find the following passages:

"Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.
And her gates shall lament and mourn; and she being desolate shall sit upon the ground."(Isaiah 3:25-26)

To my mind, it is the case that all ancient coins are great, but the "Judaea Capta" coins are a truly classic example of how the history behind them can resonate through the ages and continue to have meaning to us in the present day.

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A Gentle Reminder
We have had a remarkably fun and friendly tournament so far and I want to thank all of our members who have contributed and commented Let's continue to do a good job of keeping our tournament friendly! Instead of focusing comments too much on why you didn't vote for one coin over the other try to focus on why you did vote for the one you chose!

Remember that everyone gets 3 votes to choose which coin you think comes out on top in each of the three categories. With that I will open the floor to comments, pile-ons and shameless lobbying.

 

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I really like both coins and the write-ups...a very tough decision.

 

I always thought it was emasculate for the Flavians to depict a woman as being the captive, given it was a military occupation. But, it would be a mighty propaganda and demoralizing tool to play a deliberate part in their prophecies as The Roman State. It makes more sense to me now if done on deliberately to represent the Isaiah prophecy.
I didn't know the story behind Seleucid coins depicting elephants. Antigonus is one of the great "what ifs" of world history; similar and just after the premature death of Epaminondas of Thebes.

Both are beautiful.

 

Great coins @Ajax and @zumbly ! Perfect wear, perfect subjects, and well written info to flesh them out!

I will toss in my Selekid and my Vespasian, but have neither as exact coins in my collection. I just really like them!

Blurry Vespasian, but I think he would create some humorous saying about it!

RI Vespasian 69-79 CE AR Quinarius Victory seated wreath palm RIC 802 Rare



Seleukid Seleukos I 312-280 BCE AR Tet 14.46g Seleucia on Tigris. Zeus - Athena driving a quadriga of 4 horned elephants SC 130

Now! The hard part! Picking my votes...

 

+1
I always assumed the use of the woman pointed out the men were all killed.

 

Concise ancient History in mere small coins. So great and genius. Congrats..

 

Those are two vey nice coins @Ajax and @zumbly You have both made it very hard to choose. On the one hand I love Seleucid coins, it's one of my collection focuses, but on the other there is a coin with so much historic significance.

 

nice coins i go for Zumbly you dont see it that much/ vespasian listed as comon

 

One of the more iconic and sought after Roman coins out there. What a great coin and write up @zumbly. Well played man!

 

Man, I felt a chill when I saw those elephants! Seriously, I love the coin and writeup, @Ajax. It’s a type that’s high on my want list and I would be thrilled with an example like yours.

 

Both are very interesting coins! Love the elephant quadriga. I know how popular the Judea Capta types are, that was a good bargain.

 

Wow, people are bringing out the big guns in round one!

Both super coins and good bargains. I would have bought either one for more.

Tough call but I think the Vespasian edges slightly on historical interest. Though who knows what would have happened to history if Alexander's generals had worked together and kept his empire intact?

John

 

Woah. Both are really cool, historic coins. They are just about equally matched, so the decisions are going to be really tough. Both prices are what I’d be willing to pay, which basically means “bargain”. Both coins made me think “wow” when I saw them. Oh boy.....

 

Yes, a challenging choice!

 

That was VERY difficult to choose! I actually abstained on one of the votes, I couldn't decide at all....cast one vote for each in one of the categories.


Great rival match up!

 

Both great coins and another good match up, I have to go for Ajax on eye appeal, but as for bargain I can't go passed zumbly's I've seen this type of coin selling for heaps. (I never say my third vote so I don't lose any coin friends)

 

The noun gender for many province personifications is feminine: Dacia, Iudaea, Pannonia, Britannia. Maybe that’s the simple reason for the woman captive on Zumbly’s coin.

 

I haven't caught all of the polls yet and I'm a couple of days behind everyone for the most part, but this one to me has been the most difficult to decide on. Both are sweet coins and both although have different historical interest both are equal.

 

A difficult one, for sure, but what attracted me most on @zumbly's coin is….its wear !
It's so even and gentle, especially on the reverse, that it recalls me of impressionists paintings

Q

 

This was a fun match up that featured two great coin-friends of mine! Well played and entertaining stuff.

Result
#1 @Ajax - 81
#32 @zumbly - 98 Winner

Both contestants fielded quality coins with great write ups and did well in all 3 categories. Ajax edges zumbly on eye appeal but zumbly returns the favor on bargain and interest to win the match. Good stuff guys!

@zumbly will advance to face the winner of the @dougsmit vs @Justin Lee match that will be posted later today!