Slabbed ancients.....yay or nay?

Who is the "they" in that sentence? If by "they" you mean the graders/authenticators at NGC, I disagree. Their people are have many years of experience and are highly knowledgeable.

 

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Too many collectors believe they can just buy slabbed coins and not worry about the source or bother to learn how to spot fakes for themselves and that's just not the case. Case in point, a pretty obvious, published cast fake in an NGC slab. The slab is real, the coin is not. Good luck getting any help from NGC if you're unfortunate enough to wind up with this coin:




To the dealer's credit, they did pull the coin when I reported it but I have no idea what has happened to it since then.

 

Why is Barry so conspicuous by his absence from this thread??!!

I for one would definitely like to hear his opinion especially on the authenticating issue.

I've bought both raw and slabbed ancients and also had some slabbed myself. I like having some raw to handle but am not against grading and slabbing per se. Neither has it dampened my enthusiasm for collecting ancients

 

I can't help thinking that actual examples of NGC slabs with errors of ID or autenticity are rare enough to have a market value all on their own rather like we pay good money for original Cavinos or Beckers. My problem is that new collectors may think anything plastic is just as good. It is not. There are quite a few companies entombing coins that simply do not know enough to be selling their expertise. At the last show I attended a non-ancient dealer had a large stack of very nicely produced plastic containered coins but I forget the brand name. He said that NGC had tried to buy the rights to the slabs but the inventor would not sell. This guy knew it all and undoubtedly would find people who would buy his coins despite the hilarious overgrading and occasional ID errors. However high quality, plastic boxes do not make you a numismatic scholar. At present I have absolutely no use for any slab company other than NGC and we have seen here that they made a mistake on that Carisius cast. Many of us have bit it on that one but I allow an amateur like me to make mistakes that I deny those who set themselves up as value added providers.

I have shown it before but:
My only uncracked slab is this National Numismatic Certification MS65 Constantius II labeled Constantine II. Beginners have troubles separating coins that require reading every letter and we here on CT help many of them learn such things. Our culture requires a minimum standard of education and ability before you can call yourself a Physician or a Lawyer but anyone with some plastic and super glue can set themselves up as a coin grading and authentication service. Don't buy slabs from people who judge their product based on the quality of their plastic rather than the coins inside.

 

The authentication and guarantee issues have been discussed before. There is no need for Barry to repeat himself every few months when the search button will answer the question.

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/an...-condemned-by-sear.313342/page-2#post-3030793

A more detailed post by IdesOfMarch01 describing why a TPG cannot guarantee authenticity:

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/opinions-on-graded-ancient-coins.309985/page-2#post-2977591

 

The Horror! They must have assigned that one to one their summer interns.

That's difficult one comprehend! Thanks for posting, @red_spork sp !

Anyway, I don't go that route anymore.

 

Everybody needs to understand that there is a huge (and legal) difference between an authentication and a guarantee.

An authentication is just an opinion, expert or not, that the item is authentic -- in this case, an authentic ancient coin. If the coin turns out not to be authentic, there isn't necessarily a legal obligation on the part of the authenticator to do anything at all.

A guarantee is a specific agreement to do something if the item is proven to be NOT as represented -- in this case, the guarantee may possibly pay for or replace the non-authentic coin.

I don't know if ANACS actually guarantees its authentication opinion via any sort of financial or replacement commitment. Such a guarantee would have to be explicitly written somewhere in the material supplied by ANACS along with the coin. It's possible that they guarantee their authentication only to the extent of refunding the cost of the slabbing process if the coin is later proven not to be authentic.

 

hehe.. well, scoot over.. i guess i do to...

 

Actually, depriving a collector of the joy of holding an ancient coin is probably the least important argument against slabbing. The best reasons to continue actively discouraging the use of these unnecessary encumbrances were eloquently stated by Doug in post #25 .

I like that the topic comes up every few months. It's important to continue to bring this issue to light for the preservation of the hobby. Collectors of modern coins who are "slab-conditioned" have probably not considered all of consequences of passive acceptance of TPGs.

 

..emotional...

 

Who admits that?

Barry Murphy

 

Here's the ANACS guarantee.

The second sentence:

"ANACS guarantees the grade and authenticity of coins it has certified and encapsulated in an ANACS holder since being purchased by new ownership on January 1, 2008."

The word "authentic" or "authenticity" does not appear elsewhere in the guarantee except for a paragraph saying that verbal opinions about authenticity rendered at a show are not covered by the guarantee. There is no language discussing how disputes about authenticity would be resolved.

There is a caveat about varieties and attributions which, if I am interpreting it correctly, means they are absolved of outright misidentifications of ancient coins!

"ANACS’ expertise is unmatched by any other grading service in regards varieties and attributions. However, attribution specialists and experts may sometimes disagree concerning any given variety or attributions. Also, some varieties are de-listed each year and others have their variety numbers and / or descriptions changed or modified. As a result, ANACS cannot guarantee any attribution or variety designation listed on an ANACS holder. If an ANACS customer has an ANACS-encapsulated coin that has had its variety or attribution listing changed or modified, the customer may, for a nominal fee, return the coin to ANACS so it can be updated."

This paragraph is particularly interesting:

"This Guarantee applies only to ANACS-certified platinum, gold and silver coins and excludes bronze, copper and copper-nickel coins as these are delicate materials, easily affected by environmental conditions. This Guarantee does not apply to the following: any coin in a damaged, unsealed, counterfeit or altered ANACS holder; any clerical error(s) as to the description or grade of the coin; any “problem coins” that carry a “detail” and / or a “net” grade; any coin subjected to improper storage conditions such as extreme heat or cold, humidity, moisture, sunlight, etc.; and any coins removed from the ANACS holder. This Guarantee takes the place and supersedes all other or previous guarantees, warranties, either expressed or implied. Original submitter may not eligible for the ANACS guarantee."

So... none of the guarantee applies to bronze, copper, or copper alloy coins. I suppose billon, potin, and electrum might not be covered either?

 

This is a very important point to make. For US coins, PCGS guarantees coins and will remunerate you if it turns out to not be authentic. In this tier, most coins are covered by the submission price but for "rarities" ($100K+), PCGS charges $300 + 1% of the coin's fair market value, so, slabbing costs $10,300 for a $1M coin.

This makes sense as it ensures they have some revenue to cover their risk. Strangely, NGC has a similar pricing structure for Ancients but doesn't have any fair market value guarantee if the coin is fake.

Coins over $25K cost $100 + 1% of the FMV. Even if I wanted to slab my coins, I would not pay the cost of a nice aureus for it.

 

For me, it really depends on the coin. I, too, only keep coins in slabs to help preserve them, or to preserve their value (in the case of modern coins). Some keep their coins in slabs to keep their collection uniform in storage methods. Some slab their coins to make their coins more liquidable/jusitfy a higher asking price.

This coin is best off raw for me:


While this one (not mine) I would be more comfortable if it was in a slab.

 

Photos from a slabbing center.

WARNING : The image is graphic



The horror.......the horror....