Phillip III 8 Reales Cob from Potosi

Heh... popped up on eBay last night:

 

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Wow! Thanks for posting. It is quite remarkable that a coin like this, way below weight standard, would get their approval. These copies are high quality ones, but they have been around for decades, so a firm like this one should have known better.

On another note, I just picked up this nice Philip III 8 reales cob from the last Sedwick auction. This coin is from the Clyde Hubbard collection (check out the envelope).

Mexico, 8 reales, Philip III, ND (1599-1607), assayer F. Ex Clyde Hubbard collection.
KM 44.1
27.4 grams





This coin appears to have been acquired on March 2, 1951, if I'm reading the date correctly. Also rubbings of the obverse and reverse are on the back. Kinda cool!

 

Very nice piece! Yeah, the old-school etchings are fun - that's a remnant of another era. Definitely a cruder style asyr F... and in the legend, looks like "GRATI", no last A?

RE: the fake, I'll forgive them for not actually recognizing that it's well-known to cob/Spanish Colonial specialists - that's probably beyond their reasonable knowledge base. And while this one does have a nice patina at first glance, the way low weight should have given pause (esp. since it doesn't have a clipped look)... plus there are a few pores/zits visible on this specimen.

Not the first "known" fake to pass, of course. In the last year, I've seen two of the equally ubiquitous 1730 Mexico fake slabbed and a known 1733 klippe fake w/Guat. C/S (which is up on eBay right now) slabbed. You mentioned the 1732 Potosi... then there is a 1728 Lima, etc.. All are fairly good quality (well, the 1730 pieces are "eh") and that's why they fool people.

 

BTW, I assume I'm reading correctly that you in fact bought the model coin from Long in 1982?

Were you familiar with the fakes at that time... and did you already know their origin or did you learn that later??

 

Thanks! Yes, the obverse legend ends with GRATI followed by a square. That's the first time I have seen this anomaly, but it could be more common; with the uneven strikes and missing legends on virtually of these coins it is hard to say.

Yes, Richard Long listed this coin in one of his 1982 auctions (he ran two each year). I have the catalog in a wicker chest, so I'll try to locate it.

In 1982 I was pretty new in collecting hammer and mill struck coins and my knowledge of the fakes was scant. Back then there weren't many sources to research fakes. Calbeto's two-volume reference comes to mind.

I was really attracted to this coin's excellent strike, despite the fact that it one of the more "common" Philip III cobs from Mexico, and the bidding was quite stiff, even back then, with an $850 closing price. The brothers in Mexico City who made the copies in the early 1960s did a pretty good job casting them, but they do have tell tale signs of casting, such as the filled flan cracks and lower weight, many times significantly lower, and pretty low silver content.

 

Any thoughts on this one that a friend got for me?

Its listed as an 8 Reales from chest 3 from the Atocha...

Philip III... Potosi, Peru... Assayer Q... dated 1617... 12 grams... Grade 4...

I am not understanding the markings enough to figure out... double check any of that...

Thoughts?

 

Judging from the photos that coin looks like a typical salvaged coin from Mel Fisher, mostly likely Atocha. The coin incurred major weight loss due to corrosion, and it has be over-cleaned, a common feature of his coins.

He used an electrolysis process to remove the layers of coral, sediment and mineral oxides, which can be very thick. This is very effective, but it does leave the coin with a bright "raw" appearance.

The assayer could be Q. Since it is missing the attribution must have been based on the style of the shield, as well as the lions and castles on the reverse. A careful study looking a the variations of design can be useful with important data are missing, in this case the mint and assayer.

I have a few assayer Q 8 reales cobs, but haven't photographed them yet - too much a a backlog. I do have an assayer Q cob, probably salvaged or from a land-based hoard, which has a large Q over a smaller Q. At least that's my interpretation. It could be a C over Q.

If you compare the lions and castles of this coin with your coin, you will see that the styles are the same. The shield design of both coins seem very much the same as well. So, assayer Q is a very good informed guess.

Viceroy of Peru, Potosi, 8 reales, Philip III, circa 1613. Larger Q over small Q.
KM 10
26.52 grams

 

Thank you!

I had email correspondence that mentioned that this was one of the samples sent to some museum for conserving and evaluation of chest 3...

 

Nice! That sure does look like your coin. The certificate is very important. Do you have it? The tag helps, but the money part is the certificate with the coin's photo, Fisher's signature and the embossed seal.

Without the certificate the coin would be worth considerably less. There are collectors who specialize in Fisher coins and related certificates, but both must be together.

 

Yes... I posted a pic of the flip and certificate... also have original receipt the original pamphlet, a book and I found a video on line and bought that too