Quick question - desert patina: real or fake?

I need a Julian II / bull upgrade, but given all the talk on fake desert patinas lately, I'm getting a bit paranoid. What do we think of this one - real or fake desert patina?

Thank you in advance

 

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I'm not sure who can say for certain from pictures, certainly not me. It looks like a really nice coin, possibly with some surface issues under the 'patina'. If I were to want to risk purchasing it, I'd be looking for a decent discount off what it appears to be worth.

 

See if the seller is willing to dunk it in alcohol or acetone. That will dissolve an applied patina. It looks like an applied patina to me but it still may be a good coin. Is it from seller Zurqieh or Athena? It looks like their typical "patina".

 

I believe I read that 'real' desert patina is a bit more resistant to light rinsing and would need to be 'scraped' off.....although I'm uncertain about this.

In either case, it's a well centered, well detailed and cool example!!

Well, TIF just posted and I yield to her post....

 

It looks suspicious to me. It looks exactly like the sort of fine sand that gets applied to coins to hide rough surfaces.

 

Yeah, looks like some surface issues where the patina is thinning.

 

Thank you for the advice everyone! I'm so glad I can rely on the knowledge and experience of CT to help vet potential purchases. Yes, it's a Zurqieh piece. The price is on the higher end of what you'd expect for this coin type. So I'd be reluctant to purchase it if it's been tampered with.

 

Hmm.. now that you mention it, almost all the Athena's bronze coins have a dark orange patina, and almost all of Zurqieh's have a bold yellow patina. Hmm...

 

I see what people are talking about with the surface issues, but with the amount of detail on that coin, it might be worthwhile even if the patina was fake and you removed it.

 

Hey Smeags, I "love" the looks of your OP-coin, but I am totally gun-shy about desert patina lately (there are far too many bad tales, know what I mean?)

Sure, I have scored quite a few examples, but I'm never 100% sure if they're gonna be called-out for being "Maybelline" (isn't that what TIF sometimes calls it?)

... anyway, I never want to pass-up an opportunity to show-off one of my sweeties, so here it is (desert patina and all) ...


Julian-II



... oh, but your OP-bull does have a bit of a sway-back (I think that my bull would treat your bull very badly, my coin-friend)

 

Well, your bull is pretty awesome Gol.
I must admit I love my OP coin. Tempted to buy it. But maybe at a discount.

 

Greg, given the source (seller) of the coin I'd say the odds are high that the patina is fake.

 

Does the acetone always remove applied patina? Is that a method with 100% certainty?

Would the acetone by the way damage the coin? And how long should the coin be in the acetone? 2 seconds? 1 minute?

 

When faced with what appears to be an applied patina (one that is soft rather than hard), I try to remove it in this order:

1. Soak in water, wipe gently. If it doesn't come off, I try...
2. Rubbing alcohol soak, gentle wipe. If it still hasn't come off..
3. Pure acetone. If it still hasn't dissolved...
4. Mineral spirits.

Soaking in any of these shouldn't harm the coin and I don't worry about the duration of the soak although usually it doesn't take more than several minutes. The coin should be fine even if left soaking for hours or days. If I soak in mineral spirits I subsequently soak in rubbing alcohol. Make sure the coins are thoroughly dried after any of these soaks. I usually apply Verdicare after removing fake patinas.

Some fake sand patinas seem to be a mixture of light-colored fine sand mixed with superglue. I haven't had any of those and cannot advise you on how to remove it. I'm not sure what dissolves cyanoacrylic glue but Google probably knows .

Alcohol has been very effective for me. If the fake patina is wax-based, you'll need mineral spirits.

These fake light patinas do make the coin look good because it provides nice contrast between the fields and devices. I recommend removing such patinas though because you don't know what the substance is and whether it could cause or accelerate bronze disease.

Some time ago I bought a large mixed lot of Roman Egyptian tetradrachms. Most of them had a fake patina which was probably women's makeup. I removed it with alcohol. The concern was what the makeup might be doing to the underlying metal. I think it was hastening formation of verdigris. Here's a before and after of one of the coins. You can see how the metal is green underneath the makeup:


and the thread about it: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/an...alexandrian-tetradrachms.245794/#post-1907156

 

Acetone will do it, and it shouldn't harm the coin a bit. Just to be extra safe, if you're using acetone on a bronze coin, do the soaking in a dark cupboard or something. There's some evidence that acetone can break down photochemically on copper, but that's much less of a danger with ancients that have an actual patina protecting them.

 

Are there any other sellers that are somewhat notorious for repatinating coins? I'd like to avoid these if possible.

 

If you are willing to pay for the coin as it is and can risk removing the make-up to see what is under there, you must be used to paying too much for coins. You will be encouraging the practice. I have coins I suspect and have not tested but I only buy them when the type is something I really want. The question I have is whether you will pass on your suspicions hen you sell the coin. I plan on leaving that up to whoever inherits my coins. What I look for is an area of raised surface deposits under the sand. I figure that would indicate the coin was lost, retrieved after a period of years and lost again (possible but not as likely???). Are the places over the bull's back (not touching it) and under AN of the mintmark raised?

Question: Of the 'test' chemicals, which is most likely to harm the patina if genuine? Water???

 

I'm a bit worried now. The most expensive coin i own came from Athena - a rare provincial of Uranius Antoninus. It also has the Athena trademark desert patina. This dealer sells a lot of the types of coins I'm interested in - rare emperors like Martinian and Nepotian.

Look at this Nepotian for example:



Not a great coin in terms of condition, but you almost never see Nepotians offered anywhere. Nepotian ruled from Rome for 28 days in 350AD. Is Rome even a location where a coin can acquire a desert patina?

When selling coins, artificial patinas MUST be disclosed as a matter of ethics. So yes, I will have to pass on any suspicions I have if I re-sell.

That said, I still think the OP coin is desirable. And the asking price isn't exhorbitant, so I'm still considering it, taking into account my reservations.

 

http://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1596405
See if the above link answers any questions?

I don't have a Nepotian.

 

Athena has been caught before buying coins, applying artificial patina and not disclosing it. http://www.forumancientcoins.com/board/index.php?topic=93245.0