"Cult Bullion" and numismatic premiums on artistic product

It's really pretty simple-tokens and medals aren't coins. That's why they're called exonumia.

I've never been to a coin show that didn't have a table with a stamp dealer. Are stamps part of coin collecting?

I was commenting on Doug5353's comment "...this really has nothing to do with coin collecting..." It's the second post in the thread if you want to read it.

 

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Maybe not. I'd want to see what the heaviest Class 0.9s sold for, over the past five years. Do you know the premiums, charted?
http://www.atochatreasurecoins.com/atocha-silver-bars.htm

On 1/25/12, as announced in The WSJ, Freeman's in Philadelphia sold an Antocha bar (567.33 Ozt Fine Ag) for $17,500, or $ 30.846/Ozt. ... Silver Spot was $. 31.67, that Antocha Silver was BELOW SPOT. Two other bars sold in the auction for ~10% premium over Spot.
http://auctions.freemansauction.com/auction-lot-detail/A silver bar, recovered from the wreck of the nuestra senora/1419 220 / 821651

Auctions are often or typically 15% over mkt, so private sales are probably fairly close to Spot for most of the 1,000+ big Antocha bars.

 

My candidate for "cult bullion":

 

What about bullion you own? Do you consider that to be "cult bullion?"

 

Got it.

 

The "metric" used may be identical, but multiples of starting value might not be the best way to compare the two given that the starting values are so far apart and represent such an insignificant part of the selling price.

I think it would be more reasonable to calculate the added value from the artist. In the case of a $5 hobo nickel, it's $4.95. In the case of a hobo Morgan that is listed for $2,600, it would be $2,574. Big difference! (520x different to be exact)

What does it take to create that value? Let's assume starving artists are willing to work for minimum wage. In the case of a hobo nickel, that could mean it took an artist about 40 minutes to create the nickel. In the case of the hobo Morgan, 355 hours.

Granted that the hobo nickel pricing was from the 1940's and the Morgan is priced in today's dollars, that's still an awfully large disparity.

 

No, not really. I find your rationalization specious, but each to his own.

 

Interesting. So it's more accurate to base the final value of objects in a comparison by the cost of their material inputs, even when the value of those inputs is different by a multiple of 520?

 

Same theory for new cars, diamond rings, and designer gowns -- the minute you walk out of the dealership, they're worth, ummm, LESS, due to a low level of material input(s).

And it's worth repeating, a carved 1887 dollar has nothing to do with coin collecting, but everything to do with the "greater fool" theory...

 

Tumbaga bars are rare, quasi-numismatic items.

http://www.sedwickcoins.com/treasureauction10/brazil.htm

In 1993, Christie's sold a small 10 ozt gold tumbaga bar for 148% premium over the combined intrinsic Gold and Silver weight, ~$ 3,283.

Twenty years later, I wonder what the premium would be?

Edit: I think it's the same bar as this, sold 10/25/11, at same weight/fineness a 926% premium over intrinsic.
http://auction.sedwickcoins.com/Gol...eness-markings-VI-and-letter-B-or-R_i11264368

 

Well, if that's the case, then coin collectors shouldn't squeal in agony if an artist breaks a proof like MS66 Morgan out of its holder and carves it up.

 

True. It's a free country. There's some analogy to love tokens here, although those were presumably not rare coins at the time they were carved. Also some analogy to every (drilled) holed coin you've ever seen. It would be reasonable, however, to criticize the artisan for destroying a valuable artifact that in theory, belongs to humanity as a whole.

Some of the countries in the Middle East, however, have been particularly adept at snatching back historical artifacts from legitimate buyers.

 

I don't think it's reasonable to compare this piece of bullion to a carved Morgan.

 

Jwt708-
I don't either. I don't know why you're quoting me and saying that, either.
I think you're chasing after someone else's red-herring.

 

Ah...I may be confused, it's getting late here...guess I don't know why either.

 

Sorry, maybe my OP was confusing; I contrasted different things (pointing out the carved Morgan was "off topic") but that eBay seller offers some expensive numismatic coins also.

I'm still scoping out the very niche areas of this strata of bullion collectors/ dealers, myself.

Other than Sedgewick, I haven't yet found any 'cult bullion' specialists. His name seems to add a high premium though!

Abit more affordable obviously, these look fine to me:

 

Dan Sedwick is quite a guy. I met him at a number of coin shows in the South about 10 to 15 years ago, and I bought two of his books. He knows more about Spanish Colonial (and treasure) coins than any ten of us will ever hope to know.

He has also written lengthy articles on each of the major New World treasure ships.

 

I don't know who collects ancient or medieval bullion, that's another area perhaps fraught with patrimony claims.

Viking "Hack Silver", Russian Grivna, etc.



The UK's Treasure Valuation Committee factors intrinsic metal value, this from the Meeting Minutes at the British Museum 11/26/2010.

"13. Viking silver ingot from Yaxley, Suffolk (2010 T365)

The provisional valuer xxxxx suggested £30. The Committee examined the piece in light of this and compared it to similar ingots that it had valued in the past. By virtue of its silver content and weight, this ingot was felt to be worth slightly more than accounted for, and the Committee recommended £35. Colchester & Ipswich Museum Service hopes to acquire."

Yaxley Ingot is 5.61 g, @.750 = 0.13527 ozt; Silver then at $26.62, intrinsic value $3.60 ; artifact valued at $49.10 (x13.64)
http://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/393144

January 19,2012: estimate hiked additional 200%
"9. Viking silver ingot from Denby Dale, West Yorkshire (2010 T592)

The provisional valuer suggested £40. The Committee examined the ingot in light of this, but noted that in order for the valuation of this piece to remain consistent with those of the many other Viking silver ingots the Committee had valued previously, it was necessary to raise the suggested figure substantially. Additionally, though by its nature a fairly mundane object, the Committee felt that this was a pleasing example of an ingot. The Committee recommended £120. Kirklees Museum hopes to acquire."

Denby Dale Ingot is 19.19 g, @.750 = 0.46273 ozt; Silver then at $ 30.79, intrinsic value $14.25 ; artifact valued at $ 187.26 (x13.14)
http://finds.org.uk/database/artefacts/record/id/409188

 

"Premiums" are for something made 20 minutes ago. What your calling premiums here, others would call appreciation.