Japanese pre-WWII Coins - Pricing Sources for Meiji to early Showa?

Hello all: I know some of you collect Japanese coins (early Meiji through WWII - Showa 20 - 1945). I have the 2015 JNDA (Japan Numismatic Dealer Association) handbook. The prices are nowhere near what I consider market prices. Heritage, Stack's and E-Bay completed sales have been my source for some prices but not all.

There does not seem to be a consistently reliable pricing source like the Grey Sheet for U.S. coins and Trends for Canadian coins. Can someone provide any suggestions? Many thanks, John

 

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It depends what kind of coins you are looking at. I consider a fair number of Japanese coins to be on the 'cheap' end, if not undervalued.

JNDA is actually not too bad in my opinion. Note that during the time of print, 1 USD would be around 105 yen instead of 120 yen. That's easily a 15% difference. For argument sake, assume 100 yen is worth 1 dollar to make life easy. That said, some rarities and most Meiji era gold coins often come with a hefty price tag.

Would you like to provide some examples where JNDA doesn't seem to be accurate?

- I did forget to mention that JNDA coin prices for Korean Empire and Manchukuo coins (and other puppet states) are all over the place. I don't quite agree with a fair number of them.

 

From my experience, I gather that IN Japan, prices are pretty much stable and most Japanese coins, even very high grade BU coins are not certified by the western owned TPG companies, such as NGC, PCGS, ANACS. Many gold Japanese coins were certified by the JNDA with accompanying CoA and Ministry of Finance authentication, the latter being in those red insert plastic slabs. Most other coins in Japan (with some exceptions and perhaps a growing trend to meet the international market of dealers and collectors) tend to be sold uncertified. I'm not entirely sure of the Japanese mindset towards dipping and cleaning of coins, but I rarely see colorful toned coins on offer, and their grading scale is much simpler as well.

The quality of Japanese coins you find in major US auction houses tend to be high grade certified coins and command high premiums. There is also much less supply to choose from (outside Japan), usually. Perhaps fewer collectors of that level and quality as well (outside Japan).

Ebay is another story and it depends on whom you are buying from. I see a lot of junk on eBay, some fakes, and some certified with extremely high BiN pricing.

I guess what I am saying is that the market where you buy from differs from others. There is the market IN Japan, there is the market outside Japan, who grade (perhaps) differently and approach values differently. There is the market of online auctions, big companies like HA and Stacks, et al. and the big companies with a range of low to high quality stuff, eBay. Each one differs enough that you have to look at each one and evaluate the price trends for that market.

Does that make sense? Help any?

 

Thank you GX series and Krispy for your messages.

Let me address GX Series question pertaining to examples.

I have several JDNA catalogs (2015, 2007 and 1998) which I use to hone my skills at identifying certain Japanese coin types. (A quick side note: I used to be able to read and write Japanese when I was younger - studying and working in Japan).

The JDNA catalogs are great research sources as stated but the coin pricing is not current. If I use the exchange rate of $/JPY115, you can better understand my dilemma.

For example, the 1884 One Yen (not counter-stamped) is priced in the 2015 catalog at Yen 350,000 for what is likely to correspond to one of our MS grades - brilliant un-circulated. In 2007 the coin was valued at Yen 250,000. In the JDNA catalogs of both 2015 and 2007 any coin below the equivalent of About Un-circulated remained unchanged in price.

I researched several Heritage auctions and found that the one Yen coin graded at MS-61 (Norman Jacobs Collection) crossed at $1,610 with the buyer's premium on September 8th 2011. Using an $/95 exchange rate ( more likely where the yen traded then), the JDNA value is off by more than one-half (in 2011 terms the JDNA value would have been nearly $3,700).

I found this pattern to be true for a Man-en One Bu-kin valued at Yen 250,000 in the 2015 catalog for a Brillant Un-circulated example. In the same 2011 Heritage auction, a beautiful Man-en One Bu-kin went for $977.50 with Buyer's Premium.

I hope I have outlined my dilemma. My original question still holds: Where is a good source of updated Japanese coin prices?

What my examples show above: There appears to be a substantial arbitrage opportunity between U.S. and Japanese coin prices. Now I just got to find the buyers in Japan!! John

 

Certainly we can't go by guidebooks for pricing. That's a given. All guidebooks are unable to maintain current values and maintain a publishing schedule.

I suppose you have already looked to NGC (Price guide) as well.
Unfortunately, Track & Price only has software for US Coin figures. Same with NumisMedia FMV (I believe).

I've never looked beyond US and Mexican coins, but Coin World magazine (and digital) subscribers are offered some "ball park" figures from their published Coin Values material. I'm not sure whether they list Japanese coin values at all.

I think you may have to do exactly what you already seem to be doing, the laborious task of creating your own database culled from various sources. Tracked over time, this is bound to give you the best sense of values. Many people eventually end up doing this by default as they specialize and research before adding pieces to their collections.

BTW, You mentioned a coin with provenance to the Jacobs collection. Not that it helps with values, but have you a copy of his Japanese Coinage book? It's old, and lacks information presented in Japanese, romanji only for the most part, but still relevant for identifying coins and specifications.

 

As I alluded to earlier about different markets and perspective on values, I think the buyers in Japan will differ from those in other places. They have far more insight and material to base their prices on and prices IN Japan tend to go unchanged. It's a much smaller (and generally older) base of collectors and dealers IN Japan. Trying to bring back material from outside Japan and expecting the kind of return you see on pieces sold via Heritage, Stacks, et al. may not prove so easy, if I understand what your thinking about.

 

Hi Krispy: You are spot on. I do have a copy of Japanese Coinage by Norm Jacobs and Cornelius Vermeule.

The one person I want to meet and discuss Japanese coins is Joe Boling. He and Fred Schwann wrote the comprehensively researched World War II Remebered - History in your hands. The tome catalogs every coin and paper currency used throughout the WWII period.

Your suggestion of keeping an EXCEL spreadsheet on prices realized is a good one.

I will be traveling to Los Angeles next week to see family and friends. I also hope to visit the Long Beach Show.

I have yet to seriously study Mexican coins. My focus has been Canada, Newfoundland, early Ireland, and Japan.

Thank you again for all your informative messages. John

 

John, I hope you enjoy the show. Let us know if you get any new coins you'd like to share. Regards!

 

Interesting topic John. I never looked at your end of collecting UNC examples and therefore never looked at coins at that end. My personal opinion of JNDA is that the coins that I collect are severely underrated and I had to fork up to five times difference for a couple of coins.

My gut feel for UNC coins is that the Japanese definition of UNC would be at least MS63+. Likewise when it comes down to examples of Morgan dollars, a grade difference can vary vastly when it comes down to prices.

The only active site that I can think of is Yahoo Japan auctions which you may need membership to view historical sales.

 

John, Here are some resources I'm not sure whether you've tried for collecting auction results and studying coins.

Coin Archives may help you narrow down auction results for world coins. Example results for Japan. I believe they have a subscription service for the Lot Viewer feature that gives you more information.

Also, you should try out (if not already doing so) AC Search
Example for: Japan Meiji


Some of the Japanese dealers have their inventory online and participate in online auctions. Others still conduct mail-order auctions. But I think most rely upon in-person sales directly at the coin shows IN Japan, and this acts like an extension of their retail shop sales. Others have very limited and very out of date or poorly maintained websites. I think given the age and indifference for e-commerce amongst the more senior dealers and collectors in Japan, that is why there's so little availability online yet IN Japan. With newer generations and younger professional dealers taking over businesses in the Japanese coin industry, I think you will find a bit more move to online operations. However, like many things in Japan, they tend to remain a bit behind what the rest of the world may be up to.

I wrote this thread and reviewed some dealers in Japan I have had personal experience with in order to help readers of this forum should they ever find themselves in Japan and interested in numismatic pursuits in that country. Some of the links there might be useful to look at and consider gathering their "ask" prices for what items you can find online. It may help your pursuit of information and to see more coins (when imaged) in order to base prices to grades, comparing how its selling in Japan currently to what you see selling in other markets.

A couple others I didn't review but suggest you peruse are:

Saganokosen

Terashima coin

Daruma coins

Shinbashi stamp

 

Krispy and GXseries: How can I thank you both for your valuable contributions? I don't know where either of you are geographically. If close by (I am in Bergen County NJ across the George Washington Bridge) I certainly would like to meet and buy either of you a Japanese meal.
As mentioned I am originally from Los Angeles and visit family out there at least once a year.
I was an exchange student in Japan (Yokohama) in the early 70's and returned to Tokyo to work for the local branch of a large American bank ten years later. I have always had a fascination with Japan and its culture from a young age when I practiced Judo. I had to retire from Judo in my 40s due to injuries.

Thank you again, John

 

You're welcome, John. It's nice to meet another on this forum interested in Japanese coins. I've only studied them for a few years at this point and focus primarily on the Meiji era. There's just a handful of members who seem to collect coins of Japan-- though most are not very frequent here. Did you attend the NYINC this year? It's a good chance to come into contact with international dealers in your region, and mostly higher end Japanese pieces, those most don't have too much in inventory as the show is more Ancients and European coins. BTW, I'm recently returned from Japan, after a short tenure and located just to the east of Mr. Roebling's famous bridge. I'd wager you probably visit Mitsuwa when you start feeling natsukashii for Nippon, right?

 

You are right, Krispy. I am feeling natsukashii. In fact, I am considering returning to Japan to try and complete the 88 temple walk in Shikoku. In September and October I trekked the Camino de Santiago (all 825 kms of the French Way).
I did attend the NYINC show earlier this month. There were a lot of ancient coin dealers and high end European 14th through 17th century coins.
I did pick up a few Irish/Celtic and Canadian/Newfoundland coins. More importantly, I met some great dealers who helped educate me further about my interests in coins and history.
Keep in touch.
That goes to you, too gxseries.
I am very grateful for your insights. John

 

John let's discuss in private message called "conversation" in our user profile page on cointalk. It's a public forum so you may want to erase your email in the thread to avoid spammers getting it.