Graded Bullion Coins

Interested to hear the feedback on this from the bullion investing side of the CT forum.

I largely just stack raw ASEs and silver bullion at the best prices I can find, but I'd also like to have a graded MS70 specimen of each ASE year of release. I have NGC and PCGS MS70 slabs for every year dating back to 2003. At 2002, the prices jump to the $700.00 range.

Not interested in MS69s, as the values drop precipitously (I have an NGC MS69 1986 that was only a little over a hundred bucks).

I'm tempted to start grabbing MS70s from ANACS and IGC, as they cost about one-fourth as much. I know the knock on both of these companies, but it seems like an MS70 grade is about as simple and non-subjective a grade as can be assigned, as the coin has to be perfect. If it's not in any way, regardless of the flaw, it is not MS70.

Anyone have experience or input? I understand the resale concerns, but since I'm paying a lot less, I consider that a wash. I just want perfect coins I can afford.

 

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I think you answered your own question. NGC and PCGS will always be more desirable. You won't get as much for ANACS or ICG, but you won't pay as much either.

Me personally, I do not buy graded silver bullion. Most of the coins you get out of a fresh roll will probably be 69s anyway, and I personally can't tell the difference between a 69 and 70 using the naked eye in most cases. I don't mean to disrespect you because I respect the fact that everyone collects and likes different things, but I just don't think it is worth it. I would rather take the extra premium I would pay for a 70 and use it to buy a few extra raw ounces. Gold is a different story as I would rather pay a few bucks extra to have it certified authentic. I will not buy more than a quarter oz (whether it is bullion or numismatic gold) unless it is in a PCGS or NGC holder.

I have some ANACS coins, and one ICG walker in my collection. I bought them because I liked the coin. Even if I did but graded silver bullion I would probably stay away from these...the fact that they are sold every time I happen to turn on HSN just makes it seem that they are way too plentiful. Not to mention that guy is really annoying.

 

Wow... have not heard anyone say that before. Also did not know ANACS and ICG (IGC?) are sold on HSN. Reminds of the 1990s comic book boom. I haven't been in the coin market long enough to know if the "slab inflation" represents a similar value bubble.

I think buying new release MS70 slabs is worth it, as they seem to double in value after 5 years or so. But yeah, once that premium is already built in, you could buy a lot of metal with the difference.

 

I do not buy graded silver. I guess the point of it would be your purpose. I feel that grading will lose its luster since it's being played out beyond imagination. Silver, at $20 a pop, will not hurt my feelings if some buyer 30 years down the line doesn't believe it's real. I do believe it is worthwhile for coins of significant value. I have platinum and gold coins of value beyond $1,000 graded, just so I can sell with less hassle in the future. But again, if you are into perfect condition, I see it. I am just a bullion guy, so I just want my bullion's authenticity validated.

 

I've done very well buying select NGC/PCGS MS70 ASEs.
For example I bought five sets of the five coin 2011 ASEs
then sent the unopened box to NGC for ER grading. Three of the
five sets were returned ER MS70s. The other two sets were upgraded
via eBay for a total of five sets worth, at the time, $1500.00 each.
Same sets ungraded were worth a fraction of the MS70 graded sets.

In '09 I bought a gold UHR from the mint for $1,189. I made a BIG mistake
by not having it graded.'

In most cases modern silver bullion coins graded ms69 are usually worth
ungraded bullion prices.

.

 

You could buy some ANACS and ICG 70s and see if they really are the same quality as PCGS.

 

I was hoping someone might have some experience in that regard already, but it looks like I'll just have to try it. I just thought perhaps even a second tier grading service might be able to properly and consistently identify a flawless coin.

 

I just reread your original post and it seems to me you're interested in "buying the slab" at the lowest possible cost. If that's the case by all means buy the 2nd and 3rd tier graded slabbed coins. In most cases I believe the value of such coins are probably not much more then the same coin ungraded.

"I just thought perhaps even a second tier grading service might be able to properly and consistently identify a flawless coin."

I don't believe that is what happens otherwise 2nd and 3rd tier graded coins would be worth much more money. My father (RIP) was fond of saying you get what you pay for.

Good luck,

Mike

 

Thanks for the input... my motivation is primarily that I can't afford $700 coins (unless I buy 3 coins per year). I'll probably just save the $ and get top tier coins when I can. Otherwise I won't be satisfied that I have a quality coin.

 

See if their is coin club nearby that you can join. Members can show you how to grade and you can swap coins with them among other activities.

 

I will offer these 3 bits of advice:

1) Graded bullion is NOT worth a premium. You can collect it if you like, but over time if any premium attaches to high grades of any year, there are millions of raw coins that could be submitted and satisfy any demand thus driving out the premium, with rare exception (1995-W SAE, for one, as the total mintage is less than 35,000 coins). There are millions of raw bullion coins that lay in wait for the day when their value beyond bullion is achieved and when it does, demand will be met with more supply than the marketplace will be able to absorb.

2) Modern bullion coins are not like circulation strike coins as most, if not all of these coins, will grade MS-67 or better. Yes, the populations seem low for MS-70 coins, but in reality, there are thousands of raw coins that would meet the criteria and they would come out of the woodwork should a worthy premium be offered. Circulation strike coins are rare in MS-70 because so few of the total population of these coins would meet the criteria.

3) As far as grading companies go, yes, recognizing a "numismatically perfect" coin should be a relatively straightforward process, the reason that some companies are considered less than top tier is because they have, in the past, demonstrated a tendency to be less than accurate in their grading. These coins will always be questionable in the marketplace and never traded sight unseen, (which ironically was the entire idea behind a TPG grade in the first place), as the TPG was supposed to eliminate the question of grade so that the coins could trade in the market without examination.

 

I did just discover the David Lawrence auction site, and see that there are much better prices to be had. Any other auction/store sites I should be aware of? I have several local coin stores, but I don't yet feel comfortable negotiating on the spot without the benefit of research.

 

The OP stated that some of the MS70 ASEs sell for $700.

What would a worthy premium be? (How much would it take to dealers to crack open their tubes and start sending in coins to be graded 70?)

 

They probably can. i.e. They probably wouldn't under grade an MS70. The problem is that they do sometimes identify MS69 coins as being MS70 because they might not examine the coin closely enough to find the tiny flaw that makes the difference.

 

Even ICG 1986 MS70s are over $300 on eBay. On the David Lawrence site, 1986s sell for $450, 1987s go for $950.00. The premiums are definitely significant, given that those same coins ungraded can easily be had in mint condition for around sixty bucks.

 

For 86 silver Eagles? Crap I bought a few of them when they came out, kind of ugly now toned and all but still.....that turned out to be a good investment I guess. I would bet they all are 68 at the least and 69 for the ones I put in holders.

 

The drop-off for MS69s is precipitous.

 

Another thing to consider is whether or not those 70s will stay 70. I would be worried that milk spots or toning would "ruin" these "perfect" coins.

 

I beg to differ. The OP stated

Yet here is a 2002 NGC graded MS-70 on eBay that sold for $304.95 and still had coins available.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-Silver...19519?pt=US_Bullion_Coins&hash=item461ddfd6df

Here is another that actually sold for under $200.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2002-1-Amer...23999?pt=US_Bullion_Coins&hash=item3ce90c211f

I don't think that the market for these coins is what you perceive. I further think that you over-estimate the demand for them and the long-term probability of them sustaining prices at this level.

 

This is not true at all. An MS 70 coin is NOT a perfect coin as so many assume. MS70 is a RANGE just like any other grade. The range starts at NEAR perection and goes up to the THEORETICAL (but not obtainable) perfect coin. A perfect coin just does not exist. So if we buy into the common wisdom that ANACS and IGC have looser standards, many coins that would grade 69 in a P or N holder could slip into a 70 holder from ANACS or IGC.

Mike