In general, how much importance or value is attached to these being slabbed and graded? I realize some of the lower mintage versions have numismatic potential and thus might benefit from the exercise, but for the vast majirity of them, is there really any point to it?
In general, no. If you want to be more specific, just look at the auctions. There's your numismatic market, if any.
There's one other aspect to this topic I didn't specifically address in my original post - how much of a premium is (or ought to be) associated with ASE's that come back as an MS or PF 70?
Between 25 and 28%. Maybe a little higher with a CAC label stuck on the plastic. Really, the market can get crazy with these. If you want to take chances, just look at the auctions. That's the market. Or, it's what there is of it.
There's no point for the bullion versions which were made in the millions, except that you can make some money from people who collect them in slabs.
Just to clarify, I'm presuming you're saying you resell it at the same price as an equivalent unslabbed coin (as opposed to breaking it out of its holder)? And would that still be the case even if it was graded as a 70?
And that is their first clue that they have come to the wrong market! Surely there are exceptions for when their is known substantial numismatic premium. Still, I wouldn't try selling slabs at dealers as a general rule, knowing that this is the general result one can expect.
There does seem to be 2 classes of slabbed ASE in the marketplace. The earlier years, pre-2000 can command some very big money in ms and pf 70, mostly because the big populations are not there. It's not 100% true for every year, just a general guideline. The later years don't command those huge premiums, but will draw a bit more than raw ASE in most cases. One thing that is a symptom of is the bulk submissions. It seems that dealers aren't going back to older dates and submitting a monster box or 100's of proofs to try to get the magic 70's. At least they haven't so far, and when and if you see a bunch of them come available in the market, I suggest you check the populations before you rush to hit the bid now button. The reason they may not be bulk submitting is the cost, at $10 for 69s and $30 for 70's, it just may not be worth it, or at least they don't think it'll be profitable if they get less than 10% 70's back.
The reason for this is my customers won't pay a premium for a slabbed 69 ASE and most wouldn't pay a premium for a 70. Some collectors love to pay for something that means nothing (i.e. a certified 69 ASE, when most raw ones are 69, a first strike, when it's not actually a first strike, etc., etc., etc.).
Since this thread is in the bullion section I'd throw all thought of numismatic value out the window. In terms of investing keep your eagles raw......the slab adds absolutely no value for a bullion investor. Keep 'em shinny white too. Bullion folks is dazzled by brilliance........:devil:
The thing of it is, to me anyway, since ASE (or Golds) have never (unlike their Trade Dollar predecessors) been placed into circulation and used as coinage, it can be legitimately argued it isn't really a coin per se. That definition requires the item be used in commerce. ASE's aren't. They are just a medallion or token made out of bullion. Therefore technically there is nothing numismatic about them beyond someone (the mint) having placed a ridiculously low 'one dollar' face value stamp on them. Slabbed ASE medallions are art, not money. View them as that. If you like them as art, then buy them. If you think sinking money into art is a good approach to investment, then, if it makes you happy, go ahead. If like me, you view them as pretty bullion tokens sheathed in plastic to keep them shiny, pay a reasonable price for the plastic sheath, but remember they are just 99% pure silver medallions, not real coins. I suspect in an economic crunch their may be a quicker liquidity to selling bullion than in trying to cash in on more or less very similar appearing artwork acquired at a higher price. The aforementioned 'trade dollars' are different of course, because they actually were intended as coins used in commerce and many were. In my opinion numismatic condition considerations would therefore apply to a trade dollar slabbed and certified as being above 63 may very well be worth substantially more to a coin collector than one unslabbed in G4 condition.
When you buy an ASE with a Mint mark Proof or Uncirculated) you are paying a premium for a Numismatic coin. An ASE with a mint mark is no longer *bullion* and should be bought and sold at an extra premium in the market place. The bullion ASE may have a mintage of over 40 million this year vs approximately 250K of the reverse PF. If the previous dealer is not *able* to sell ASE with a mint mark and grades PF69/70 at a premium then those coins should be sold in a different marketplace. The premium associated with PF70 vs PF69 is roughly based on the populations of each coin. NGC members are able to see how many of each coin has received what grade. The *value* of each year and each grade is dependant on the supply and demand, the populations of each coin. There is a very large group who are collecting graded ASE, so when a set of ASE is limited to only 100,000, the demand causes the price to spike. Coins with very low mintage are considered "Key" dates, because of the limited supply that *ALL Collectors Must Have* to complete their sets. Thats why the 1995W is so expensive...very few sold by the mint and even fewer graded PF69/70. Hope this helps
Well that is the NGC business plan anyway. To me, it is just arty bullion. It'll melt the same as the others. Don't much care if some folks want to grade it numismatically (sp?) or not. If times go bad and someone tries to buy 10 gallons of gasoline (or diesel, or scrap motor oil cut with some kerosene, etc.) with a MS70 ASE, well he is in for a shock. He will find it buys exactly the same amount of fuel (or other commodity) at Jeb's suttlery as 13,5 worn out dimes or a scratched up ASE. That is the underlying reality of collecting pretty bullion metals. All this other jazz, protective slabs, marketing plans, extra polish, numismatic gradings, magic numbers, et al, that is all dependent on the society working just fine and nothing going wrong. One good asteroid strike and you will be borrowing a hammer so you can take the medallion out of the slab and get over to the sutler's and buy some fuel before your grand-kid's toes turn black in the cold (i.e., frostbite). Do I think frosted medallion finishes are pretty? Heck yeah. I have even been known to give one as a gift. Nice art. Would I invest my earnings into an art collection? Not likely. Different strokes for different folks. Just remember though, not everyone is listening to the same kind of music and things can change really quick. "If the previous dealer is not *able* to sell ASE with a mint mark and grades PF69/70 at a premium then those coins should be sold in a different marketplace" Yup, absolutely. True in any business. If you can't sell a warehouse full of green paint in Ohio, sell it in Vermont. 'Nuff said.
I think there are going to be a lot of folks disappointed when their slabbed MS70 SAEs develop spots.
Although i roll hunt and collect BU coins for my albums, I am an eagle collector. Even though I buy Eagles slabbed, I do realize that they are truely worth spot. But I stand by my argument that its not just "flashy bullion" Its a coin that is excepted as payment as I have seen before. Its a bullion currency that is not ment for circulation. I hear this all the time and it doesnt make sense. Its not a bullion round like the sunshine minting rounds I own. To me, it has a minted number, and even a year which makes it collectable and desifer between the two. I might get crap for this at shows amd all, but in the end. When I buy them I buy them close enough to spot to get my money back. Thats what you have to remember when buying ASEs, you can be taken fast so buying smart is key
Durn it every time I think I am done with the thread a new concept creeps into it. "Its a bullion currency that is not meant for circulation." No such thing. Even the US $10,000 bill was meant for a limited circulation as means of resolving a transaction and is therefore currency. ASEs however are only a little bit different than the bullion bars and ingots I used to haul back and forth from the (then Secret) West Point Mint Depositary vaults to the Manhattan Federal Reserve Bank in the Cold War days. They both had (have?) bald eagle stamps. Both say United States of America. One had very limited legal destinations (mint to mint), but the newer ASEs can be bought and held by anyone. That does not make it intended for use in transactions. Indeed in order to specifically prevent that they stamped the ASE Medallions 'one dollar.' LOL. That wasn't clear enough for the Numismatic types. They should have stamped it 'not valid for use as currency if the rate of exchange is more than two cents.' If it was intended to actually be a circulation coin used in transactions, it would have been marked 'Twenty Dollars' and released in a different channel. There is one difference, and to me one difference only, between the Sunshine mining (or pick a back yard smelter) 1 troy ounce rounds and the ASE. I have yet to see a really good counterfeit ASE. I am not saying they aren't out there and that someone reading this won't take it as a challenge. I am just saying that all of the fakes I have seen don't stand an eyeball/tactile inspection. Poor polish, imperfect reed spacing, funky looking bird, etc. That brings us to the difference. Take a Sunshine (or other make) round out of the box or packaging. Do the same for an ASE. Go sell your Sunshine round to a silver shop. At least 85% of them will insist on the right to assay it first before offering you a price. They will also charge you for the assay and damage the item in the process of the assay. That is because their are fakes out there and not all rounds actually contain the purity of silver they are supposed to. <There are fake PCGS (and other) slabs out there too. One problem with a slabbed coin. How do you verify it is real without cracking the slab? How do you know you aren't buying a piece of plated zinc inside the slab?> Now offer the ASE. He weighs it, but he may not even bother to do that, then gives you the money. No Assay required. That is the only difference between a privately produced bullion round and a government produced bullion round. Similar with Maple Leafs and Krugerrands. The liquidity of other government's (and corporate or bank produced) bullion rounds and ingots is directly related to that round's reputation, AND whether or not the intended purchaser has handled enough genuine specimens so they know what they are looking for. Back in the day (cold war era) I used to spend all day riding in the back of Brink's trucks moving bullion or methadone or stranger stuff from point a to b. <It was a great, but also a very dangerous job. Besides robbers to deal with, sometimes the stacks tumbled on potholes and 2nd Ave used to have lots of those.> Point is the ingots and bars (or slabs) usually had some interesting stamp marks on them. Credit Lyonnaise, Federal Republic of.., Peoples Democratic.., National Bank of.., Credit Suisse, etc. <Gosh I wish I had a digital pocket camera in those long-ago days.> Older bars had simple stamps. Newer bars (as the old ones were counterfeited) often had increasingly more complex stampings. Recorded and tracked Serial numbers too. Frankly, back then I thought the little Lyonaisse ingots had the prettiest stampings. Big ingots. Not the toy 1,000 gram ingots sold on Ebay, or the little tiny thing C. Eastwood takes out of the bag in Kelly's Heros, but big 30 (400 Oz.) or 75 pound (800 or 1,000 oz (forget which)) gold, silver or platinum bars. <There is an old Lee V Cleef, Raquel Welch & James Brown western B movie where at some point somewhere in Mexico (studio lot probably) one of the men picks up an ingot of the approximate size I write of with one hand and throws it underhanded across a large room. LOL. Arnold in his prime would have trouble with that.> Many weird coins. Krugers, Ducats, Shekels. Stuff not found too often in the US, but often today counterfeited everywhere. Good luck trying to liquidate a box of gold Ducats to someone who has never seen and handled one before. Bring your ASEs to Dubai or Kathmandu and you would have similar fun trying to sell them there. This is why I mostly hold bullion from my own country. Consistency in manufacturing quality + recognition + reputation = Liquidity. Would I personally trust ANYTHING from the Sunshine mine to be what it claims to be without an assay? In a word, No. I have been watching or listening to tales about that hole in the ground for nearly 40 years. I have also experienced the alleged value of a load of Sunshine silver we were to deliver be adjusted downwards on receipt of an assay of a sample from the load before we left. True that was in the 70s. Does that mean those bars have vanished? That hole in the ground has had more owners than you can shake a stick at. They have been moving in and out of bankruptcy court since the 70s. Erroneous assays has been only one of their historical problems. To me the whole Liberty Dollar plot is only a sidebar issue. This ramble reminded me of something, and I will start a thread on it in bullion.
The real point is if the ase is worth more graded. Yes to some. And to others no. But list a graded eagle for sale on ebay and start it at spot. I will sell almost double that.
