At what point is it not 'bullion'?

In your opinion, what makes a coin a bullion coin vice a collector coin? Obviously a coin with an unlimited and/or large mintage would be bullion, say a US gold eagle. But what about a gold eagle in PCGS/NGC MS/PR70? Is it now not bullion? How about a modern coin with a low mintage, like a 2011 Israeli 'Western Wall' (mintage 3600) in MS70? A double eagle in AU50?

Just trying to figure out where the line is. Maybe where a coin is worth xx% above melt?

Thanks.

 

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To me a coin is a circulated piece issued by a government.

Bullion is a round/bar made of a precious metal that has not circulated. Bullion then commands different levels of premium in relation to scarcity and desireability.

 

Yes, this. But I'd avoid 'melt' (misused) - I'd say 'Over Intrinsic': where the .999 ingot price for the relevant PM has essentially no 'collector' value, a Base Price for the retail mkt.

As others have noted elsewhere, when the Spot price a PM drops, some additional 'numismatic value' of those bullion coins may return.

 

As far as silver, with silver prices as it is today, anything 2x melt value for me.

 

To me a "coin" carries numistic value even if of little or no worth. Bullion is a quantity of "pure" valueable metal regardless what appears on it. When the Bullion in question gains value OVER simple melt value (ie 2012-W ASE) it is not longer just bullion but a coin. That's my opinion anyway.

 

To me the market determines what is bullion or not. Anything with less than say 10% premium over melt is effectively bullion whether you like it or not.

This does not mean, though, that you cannot be smart and buy coins that would stop being bullion if the market declined, or a segment got "hot" in collecting. That to me is just prudent collecting, but today, as we sit here, g-vg barbers are bullion unless a rare date. They never used to be bullion, but the market has changed. To me, buying VG barbers, commemorative coins, and other pieces like that is the way to buy silver today. You get the silver value, but also have some numismatic "safety net" if PM falls in price.

Just my opinion, and probably why most of my PM is in the form of coins.

 

• Bullion - A measured amount of refined PM where weight & purity are specified by a refiner or mint. Normally in the form of bars but can be in other shapes as well depending upon the entity handling it. exa. gold tael
• Bullion Coin - Not to be confused with "bullion". It's a PM coin produced by official government mints, where the purity and weight of the metal are guaranteed by the government. Generally these coins will track the spot price of AU or AG with some premium.

A bullion coin may become a collector's coin either because it's produced specifically as one, i.e. Proof versions of bullion coins, or because it is rare, i.e. 2008-W Buffalo. Certain very exceptional coins can become collector's coins because of their beauty. A good example is the 2009 UHR. This coin never sold out, but they sold over 100K of them, but despite this, it easily commands a $1000 premium over the bullion value. Some bullion coins can become collector's coins because they are a series and/or certain sub-series can command a lot of numismatic value. i.e. The First Spouse liberty sub-series.

 

Ya I remember looking at this coin back in the Summer of 2009: HUGE PREMIUMS, ordered from the Mint (~40% all incl.) For clients wanting longterm bullion, I specifically warned them away from this and that egregious markup. They bought cheaper Maples instead.
http://www.coinnews.net/2009/11/08/2009-ultra-high-relief-gold-coin-values/

Pay Spot + over $1,000." for this coin? Well, a fool and his money are soon parted. Today, best price, 2009 UHR is certainly nowhere near "$1,000. premium" (+59% premium over Spot??!) The 2009 Ultra High Relief Double Eagle (w/Original Box and CoA) is readily available from Provident for $ 800. over Spot (pay more) and it's auctioning (or BIN) on eBay from Top-Rated Sellers for just $575.- 600. over Spot (pay less.)

That's still a ~34% Premium - way too high. The premium has fallen at least 25% by this Quarter, within 3 years. Recently completed auctions show the coin selling for ~29.6% over Spot. So check the collapsed 'numismatic premium' for that gimmicky coin three years from now, when Gold is either >$2,800./ozt or, conversely (in another deflationary burp) Gold plunges -25% again.

Don't believe putative 'numismatic value' will surge here: most modern PM coins are overpriced, hyped bullion. Caveat emptor.

 

I would say many coins are both and it just depends on what your purpose is.

 

You, draw the line, sir............

 

A coin is a collector coin when a collector buys it to put it in a collection. Perhaps that's a somewhat circular definition lol but it's the best I can come up with. It's really the intent of the buyer that sets up the distinction, not some quality inherent in the coin itself. If you bought it purely for the sake of investing in its intrinsic value and have zero interest in its numismatic qualities, it's just bullion. You bought it because you found it numismatically interesting and wanted it in a collection, it's a collector coin. You decide where the line is (or even whether or not there is one).

 

Well too bad for you I guess. It also sounds like a lot of sour grapes.

Those of us who own the UHR who bought when it was $1195 are quite happy with it. 4 years later Provident, the vendor you cited, sells it for $2508. A very handsome return.

This is an example of why I don't take advice from someone who will earn money from my decisions. You might be better served if you took the time to "understand" the gold market instead of bashing it.

 

I consider most all government coins to be bullion, even graded coins. It would have to have a really nice + unique design or be relatively rare for me to consider paying a premium.

 

Not sure i understand you are saying even commemorative coins/nclt are bullion?

 

That's what they are worth to me unless they meet the criteria I've stated. I realize this is not the norm.

 

I'm new to the "collecting game" but have decided, like anything else, to diversify. I have a number of "bullion coins" primarily bought for the intrinsic value that are ungraded and, most of which (if not all), will never be graded. I also have a number of graded coins that I have purchased in the MS/PF 69/70 range that are, at least according the the TPGs, worth more than I paid.

I track the value of both against the spot market. On my ungraded ASEs, I'm averaging just over $5 above intrinsic value. My graded ASEs average is well above the intrinsic value but the TPGs "value" gives me "worth" of nearly 40% above what I paid. I find myself becoming more oriented to buying slabbed coins but I still occasionally will add a raw coin if I can get a good price. I intend to keep a 2/1 raw/graded ratio and will slow down what I buy in order to do so.

 

To me they are. A COIN is issued with the intent that it circulate as money. If they aren't intende to circulate they are just glorified bullion. (in some cases glorified clad)

 

The fact that they are legal tender, and could potentially circulate, makes them a coin in my book,

I've got quite a few circulated classic commems......

 

To me, it's no longer bullion when spot pricing no longer affects the cost of the item. Once there is a disconnect from the price of the material it's made from, then it's a collectible and bullion is what it's made from.

 

+1

Bullion to me is something that will sell for spot + tiny premium, and no one really cares about it's condition since all they are expecting is the price of the metal it's made from. A collectible is something which care is given to it's condition, and the expectation is highly elevated premiums beyond the inherent metal value. Also, to me it doesn't matter if it's a "coin" or not, since folks will collect bullion "art" bars also.