Tungsten Bars Worry the World

[FONT=&amp]I find it rather interesting how much you have added to my original post. I never said nor implied anything about paying "full price" and only attempted to point out the fact that if there was not a certain faction in this country willing to buy such products, the problem would be nowhere near as severe. I can honestly state that I've never had a Chinese national attempt to pass off a fake, but I've had plenty of other Americans knowingly try to do so.

To make a connection between what I've said regarding counterfeits and the rape of a woman is beyond reprehensible. What kind of sick and sad individual makes such a comparison? I made my feelings very clear in that there is no blame placed on an innocent buyer, but there is much to be placed on those who purchase such things to defraud the unsuspecting. I did not realize this was so hard to understand. [/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]Is it safe to assume that you place all blame on Mexico or Columbia (amongst others) for the drug problems in this country? Is it really that hard to understand that if that if certain people in the US did not create a demand for such products, the suppliers would have no one to sell to? Should all US drug dealers be considered innocent because there are foreigners to point the finger at? If there is a demand, someone will supply, and as long as there are people in this country willing to pay for counterfeits, and even if China stopped producing them, someone else would. This is NOT to say that I am okay with it, but I do understand that there is plenty of blame to go around. What a concept![/FONT]

 

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But even in there counterfeiters have actually cracked out large number of fake slabs, about.com had a good picture of Chinese police cracking down one operation with thousands fake slabs siting in garbage bin (iirc one popular strategy outline in panda forums was send a real coin get it slabbed, break it apart and use the cert # for a fake coin and keep repeating the process).

 

Check out Ebay. Honestly, I don't know if you are serious, or just naive. Surely you don't excuse those who grow and produce opium, cocaine, etc... just because there is a middle-man selling it? In the case of counterfeit coins, China and others are even more to blame because buyers NEVER, NEVER intentionally purchase counterfeits when seeking the real thing. With drugs, the buyer of cocaine doesn't think he's getting asprin. With coins, the buyer thinks he is getting one thing but the seller is being intentionally deceptive. And once the coins are in the system, it takes a pretty expert eye to detect them.

I understand your feelings. I just think they are either misinformed or repulsive.

 

A few years ago there were some local "kids" doing this with NGC slabs, except they were using somewhat lower grade and/or details US coins of dates where there is a big jump from one tick to the next.

 

Ebay... I should have guessed as much. If anyone is naive, it would be you for failing to realize that everyone has their own experiences. I've had many, many attempt to knowingly pass off a fake as genuine, and not once was the person someone I believed to be a Chinese national. These were mostly local and/or face-to-face dealings. Ebay - of course - is a different story.

Of course not. I am glad that we are (at least) on the same page with this.

Agreed, but (again) the fact remains that all blame should not be placed on one country, nor should said country be condemned for the actions of a few. I do not, and would not dispute that China is a huge problem, but they are not the only one. There is a fair number of fake US gold that came out of the Middle East, yet I rarely hear anyone slam them for it.

It is worth remembering that not all buyers are seeking the real thing. Of course the ones that are would never intentionally purchase a counterfeit (I thought this went without saying), but such people do not constitute "all buyers".

I regularly have to deal with this crap, and am far from misinformed. I have to put my money where my mouth is, and over time have come to understand that it TAKES ALL KINDS. If anything is repulsive, it is when someone (not necessarily you) fails to understand this.

 

I would go as far as to say that anybody who makes a coin that may be mistaken for the real thing, and does not mark it as "COPY" somewhere on the coin is a criminal. The damage to the hobby has been tremendous and, yes, China is a big source of the problem. Weasel words about some people desiring counterfeit coins does not excuse this.

 

I absolutely agree, and NEVER said nor even implied China was not a big source of the problem. My initial post was only to point out that it is flawed logic to condemn an entire nation over the actions of a few? Nothing more and nothing less.

"Weasel words"? How big of you, sir. This whole thing is ridiculous. I've repeatedly agreed with you that China is a big problem, and have done everything possible to understand your side, so is it really asking for too much for you to at least try to grasp the elementary concept that there are people (other than Chinese) who purchase such counterfeits with the sole intention of using them for fraudulent purposes? Again, this is in addition to and no way takes away from the blame due the Chinese.

Maybe you should consider the chance that I may be of Chinese decent, or that maybe I do not take kindly to someone bashing an entire culture over the actions of a few. This is not to take anything away from the blame due those involved, but if you are too blind to see that there are a lot of people who deserve additional blame, there is nothing that I can say to convince you. Lately a number of small local corner stores have been in the news for selling knock-off Nike shoes, handbags, and other name brand merchandise, which is very similar to the issue at hand. The people producing such things are criminal and deserve blame, but so do the people buying this junk and knowingly selling it as the genuine article. In regards to blame, this is the only point I've been trying to make.

BTW... I never said that the people who desire counterfeits excuse anything, but I guess it is easier for you to hurl insults, throw up smoke and mirrors about rape, and say whatever else possible to avoid accepting the reality that not one group is 100% responsible for the damage such things have done. That said, this does not take away any blame due the Chinese. Now, dear sir, please feel free to commence with the insults.

 

I think it is important to make the distinction between the Chinese government and the people of China. Their leaders are not elected "of the people, by the people, for the people", so they aren't one and the same. So when I say "China" is a big part of the counterfeit problem, I'm referring primarily to those people who are producing counterfeit items, and the government for it's refusal to do anything meaningful about it.

 

Regarding (1), your comment does not excuse the manufacturer of the counterfeit, which was the original target of the comment.

Regarding (2), I don't buy into the concept of collective blame or collective praise. It is wrong for you to assume otherwise. In this case, the only one who interpreted any of the comments in this thread as an insult to China is you. The blame lies squarely on the counterfeiters. To blame the buyers is to blame the victim and that I will never condone.

 

And your comment is entirely correct. BooksB4Coins is misinterpreting everyone's comments.

 

I never said it did.

Nor do you have to. If you feel that a pass should be given to the people who take the counterfeits and directly hurt this business/hobby with them, that is your call and I will respect that, but please do not insult me for not doing the same. When it comes to me in an attempted fraud, your are darn right I blame that person... "buyer" or not. At that moment I could not care less about where something is made or who made it. In my opinion, ALL parties invovled are to blame.

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I have not misinterpreted anyone, sir. You might want to take a look in the mirror before stating such things. My initial response in this thread was to the following:

"Unfortunately, theft, fakes and ripoffs are part of Chinese culture going back centuries."


Please tell me how I misinterpreted this? It is a direct statement that - as worded - places an entire culture a negative light. Everything else was nothing more than a simple disagreement that you felt it necessary to elevate to the point of childish insults instead of discussing as men.

If anyone has misinterpreted comments, it is you.

I absolutely agree, and this is exactly what started this whole mess... a simple failure to make this distinction. Thank you for this addition, sir.

 

It is an important distinction, one I have been amiss in making at times as well. However important this distinction is, I also agree with your original point. I have studied Chinese numismatic and economic history a lot, have many specialized references on the subject, and it IS true that counterfeiting has been a problem within China for centuries if not millenia, and in many ways to a much more severe extent than most other areas of the world. I don't know the cause of it, or if the government by their ineffective action simply allowed more of this to go unpunished more so than most other cultures, but its simply the truth.

I say that NOT to besmirch the reputation of anyone of Chinese descent, as I consider it one of the premier cultures in the world, but to simply explain there HAS been a culture of counterfeiting in China for a very long time, and that culture is today simply extending the boundaries outside of China.

Its a fine distinction to make, and though I agree 100% with you Blaubart, I also agree with BooksB4Coins objecting to a too overarching statement of this. Like I said, I have made the same error here before, of not fully explaining what I meant by saying that.

Chris

 

Any idea where I could find a tungsten bar?

I'm getting ready to teach a class on common Gold/Silver scams at the local rec center, and would like to have some examples for demonstration. Not to worry - I will stamp it "Copy" with metal awls.

 

Well, if it's actually a plain tungsten bar, you'll have a hard time marking it with an awl.

If it's a gold bar that's been drilled and filled with a tungsten core, it's still going to contain enough gold to make it a VERY expensive prop.

 

"Any idea where I could find a tungsten bar?

Sure China:

http://www.tungsten-alloy.com/gold-plated-tungsten-alloy-bar.html
__________________________________________________________________________________________

-Unfortunately, theft, fakes and ripoffs are part of Chinese culture going back centuries-


-Some would argue fraud, deception, and shady business practices are ingrained Chinese culture.-

http://www.muddywatersresearch.com/

"浑水摸鱼
(muddy waters make it easy to catch fish). In other words, opacity creates opportunities to make money. This way of thinking has been part of Chinese culture for centuries, and it is institutionalized in the modern PRC.Western investors and their regulatory systems are inherently unprepared for muddy waters environments. Moreover, Harvard-educated Chinese analysts based in New York usually have little more in common with Chinese company managers than you do. As a result, many sub-par Chinese companies find ways to game the system and trade at inflated values. At the same time, a number of well-run and well-positioned companies are underappreciated because their managements, often abandoned by RTO or IPO sponsors, are awkward to foreign investors."

http://newsandinsight.thomsonreuters.com/Legal/News/ViewNews.aspx?id=22939&terms=%40ReutersTopicCodes+ CONTAINS+'ANV'

 

(1) Well you absolutely said it. See below. No law-abiding person would ever refer to a counterfeiter as a so-called criminal. You are excusing the manufacturer of counterfeit coins with the statement.

“So-called "criminals" or not, if these people were not willing to buy such things, who do you think the Chinese would sell to?”

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t214944/#ixzz292dWfN6S


(2)This blame the victim mentality is disgusting. The term "all parties" includes honest buyers ripped off by those who produce counterfeit coins and slabs for the purpose of theft by deception.

(3)I was responding to Blaubart, and he never made that statement and neither did I. So get your facts straight and stop slandering people to score points. If you want to address things I have said, that is fine. But don't go putting other people's words into my mouth or into my posts to try the old guilt by association trick. You are dishonest and apparently willing to go to any length to protect counterfeiters for reasons only you know.

 

I think it's more simple than this. The communists and the communist state isn't concerned about counterfeiting unless it affects the state's own currency or a state enterprise. Otherwise, it's fair game.

 

It has very little to do with the communist. It has been an artifact of their culture for centuries. It is difficult for some to accept this fact.

浑水摸鱼