manipulating precious metals without owning actual precious metals

How can it be that you once very clearly stated on this forum that silver price suppression was taking place, in fact you said "this has actually been going on" yet now you state that you have never seen any evidence of it? You even said the futures market for silver has lost its legitimacy because of it.

This statement

is completely contradicted by your earlier statement.

 

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The goal of silver price suppression, by the way, is to contain the daily price within a range. If the price falls too low (over a period of time), a lot of stackers will come off the sidelines, and buy, and momentum players will run the price way up - not what the cartel wants. If the price goes too high, breaking out like it did last year, it suggests that the administration is not doing enough about inflation, a political liability (or worse, a clue that hyperinflation is coming).

The Barclay's and LIBOR business is just the tip of the iceberg.

But for the big banks and Wall Street, who have a lot at stake, it is critical to maintain the range by whatever means possible, legal or illegal, ethical or unethical, until the elections are over.

 

After additional investigation and discussions with someone who does this for a living, the earlier statement was shown to be wrong. The difference between us is that I can learn as new information becomes available while you cannot and possibly won't even challenge your own assumptions as I constantly do in order to improve my investment performance. If you spent as much time investigating how the silver market works as you do searching through my old posts on a holiday, you might be less stagnant in your thinking.

 

OK, so you made an "assumption" and then reported it to this forum, as fact. That you knew it was taking place and we are to believe you.

I've said several times in this very topic that successful investors don't act on assumptions. They act on knowledge and conclusions based on observing results.

As far as searching through posts, I didn't any time on it. You said you had never seen any price suppression. So a few keystrokes later we have a post from you where you not only stated that you had seen price suppression but that you had already concluded that the futures market was illegitimate. You even said there needs to be better regulation. It was amusing enough to see given the cost of a few keystrokes on google.

 

All investing is about judging probabilities based on available information. When the information changes, so must the estimate of probabilities. This is why I'm constantly testing my information, and asked you for the evidence of your assumptions to check against mine [which you refuse to do]. The difference between us is that I perform the research and change according to what I discover. I freely share the best information I have at any point in time. You just make things up, then fight about it. I would hate to be in your position, to have never learned anything new in the past five years, and not care whether or not this damages readers of CoinTalk.

 

All of us get comfortable in our assumptions, and its irritating for someone to challenge and ask us to justify those assumptions. However, if you cannot prove something, why are you risking your retirement on that assumption?

That, I believe, is what Cloud and I wish to accomplish. We truly don't care if we change your mind, but wish to make sure you have firm, provable reasons why you believe something, and its just not some crap you read on the internet from PM salesmen. These PM pushers have been around for at least 30 years I have read their stuff. Same thing every time, (PM manipulated, "the man" does not want you to own PM, I alone am printing the truth, currency is going to fail soon, etc). Seriously, if I had kept some of that literature from 1982 it could be distributed today and would read identical to some websites.

That's all folks. Research yourself, and not on PM pusher websites. Don't believe me, Fatima, Cloud, or Inflexion, call us all liars and do your homework yourself. Come up with your own reasons why you believe a certain way, and if you are confused about why markets perform a certain way, why prices do certain things, feel free to ask.

As for validity of certain opinions here, just like "everything I needed to know I learned in kindergarten", everything you need to know about Fatima is post #13 and his insistence he is correct, and everyone else "doesn't understand markets". Research the validity of that claim yourself too.

 

I've already said this.

But this is the similarity between our posts ends. I don't list anecdotal qualifications for myself for the purpose of making myself "sound" more credible over the other party. So please don't include me in explanations as to what you and Cloud might have done. As for post #13 you keep insisting that I have done something wrong, but when I ask you to tell me what is wrong about it, it's nothing but silence. It seems to me that you either give me that opportunity or be done with it.

Ever since I was reported for being abusive on this forum, which I apologized to not only you, but the rest of the forum, I've tried to keep the petty insults, name calling, "I'm better than you" and similar out of my posts. I admit to my mistakes. Since you claim to speak for Cloud too, then all I can say to the both of you is that I wish you too would do the same as well. If you are here to accomplish something, that isn't going to get you there.

I've made my case I believe that silver price manipulation and don't seek to change anyone's mind. They can decide that for themselves.

 

Here are some articles about precious metal manipulation:
http://rencompanies.com/index.php/b...covers-market-manipulation-in-precious-metals

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/whistleblower-exposes-jp-morgans-silver-manipulation-scheme

 

from url #1.

This seems like a simple smart thing to do, why doesn't everyone do it? It certainly isn't illegal in any aspect.

 

AKA "buy low, sell high"?

 

Article two starts out "CFTC held a sham hearing". Certainly sounds like an unbiased news story.

Regarding the whistleblower calling the market 2 days before non-farm payroll data is released, and then the market going the way he thought proves anything. If he correctly was predicting non-farm labor data, then his guess on the price of silver would be correct as well. Correctly guessing a news item and its effect on the silver market is not "proof" of manipulation. Heck, lots of people HOPE to be able to do that and make money, heaven forbid.

 

Actually, it also sounds a lot like what a market maker is SUPPOSED to do, that is stabilize a market.

 

The illegal part is they trade far in excess of the actual silver in their possession. If they get caught with their pants down they then pay off the buyer not to take delivery. It could be argued that even this is OK (naked shorting) but the kicker is that since Glass-Stegall has been repealed, this activity (their losses) is ultimately back stopped by the taxpayers. It allows for a very unfair advantage in regards to risk.

When silver ran up to $50 last year, there were massive shorts being placed on the market but the difference is there were some massive longs entering because they decided to play the game as well. What happened is the longs would hold for delivery and then the shorts were forced to pay 125%+ since there wasn't silver to cover it. For the longs it was an easy 25% return for 3 months. This is fun until one of the parties pulls out. It happened, and silver crashes more than 50% in just a few months.

Small buyers, including many here, got burnt badly by it. Coin collectors, who were being forced to buy or miss out also got burned by it. They didn't understand this wasn't being driven by demand because they assumed it was being driven as a commodity. The very discussion we had in this topic where silver is assumed to trade like corn is an example of this thinking. I was making posts on this forum warning people not to get too involved in this kind of price change, but people would not hear of it and instead talked about $100 silver. Price Stability? - not a chance.

The markets are not suppose to run like this and this is why there are rules and laws against this sort of activity. But like the news about Barclays this week, we see the finance industry is not being properly regulated.

 

Corn - July open interest 2358, September 364792, December 476020.

 

Corn - july open interest - 625

 

From what I've heard they don't have to produce anything unless the contract is for 1.5 million or more.

 

I'm not sure what you are talking about, but if you buy a futures contract and stand for delivery, then the seller is obligated to provide the commodity. If you have the money, (min is 100 oz/Au and 1000 oz/Ag) it is a nice method to purchase a quantity of silver or gold at a very good price.

 

Down the line, if "they" hand you a 100 oz gold bar, you have big problems. There's no way to sell it without an assay; there's no way to use it in everyday commerce; there's no way to "make change"; you have to prove it's real to every j-- that comes along, etc. I'll stick with junk silver and the occasional Canadian Maple Leaf...

 

This is a big problem that I don't mind having.