manipulating precious metals without owning actual precious metals

Then take natural gas. The price was about $15.50 in late 2005 and about $6.25 in 2007 back up to $14 in 2008 and $4 in 2010. There are many other examples in markets of all types around the world. I know you don't want to admit it, but silver just isn't that unusual.

 

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Maybe you prefer copper. It was $about 4.25 in late 2008 and about $1.40 six months later. Buy 2010 it was about $3.40 again.

 

^But this says nothing about silver unless you can demonstrate, somehow, that demand and supply for silver has the same issues as natural gas and for that matter that there wasn't also price manipulation on this item. We are talking about the Comex coming up with true price discovery for silver.

 

Oil is a good one. It was $52 in 2007, went up to $145 and back down to $35 by 2009.

 

You will never admit you are wrong, so I'm done with this. People can look at the examples I posted and your claim and decide for themselves. Price examples such as these occur throughout the history of markets. Maybe you are contending that every market everywhere at every time in history was manipulated. I can't grasp that level of paranoia.

 

I recommend that some of the posters, above, read about market manipulation at http://www.gata.org especially in precious metals. Congress has already acknowledged, after GATA testimony, that markets have been, and continue to be, manipulated.

You will find cases at COMEX and SLV where an entire year's worth of silver production, worldwide, traded futures contracts in one day; this happened several times in 2011. And for all practical purposes, SLV operates on a fractional-reserve basis, holding a small amount of silver in proportion to the volume of contracts traded.

 

First, by definition all leveraged plays can be classified as "manipulation" both short and long.

Second, volume in a market is a good thing. It adds liquidity. Everyone railing about volumes versus actual production simply just do not understand how commodity markets work, and I don't think they want to know. Please read my earlier comments on this thread about the CME that I posted before it ran into the all too common buzzsaw on the PM section.

 

I've read a lot of GATA's stuff, and they publish interesting stuff. Their manipulation claims looks a bit suspect when you consider that gold prices are up about 6X over the past dozen years. I believe GATA operates as a non-profit with employees paid through contributions. Do you really expect them to come out someday and say, "We just discovered that we were wrong. Please stop sending contributions."

Also, you state that SLV operates on a fractional reserve basis which I believe is incorrect. They publish a list of their silver bars.

 

Liquidity is good, yes, if the transactions are transparent, and the naked shorts are not violating stated SLV policy or Federal regulations. Read what GATA says.

It is absurd to contemplate a year's worth of production trading in ONE day.

 

So, how much commodity market experience do you have sir? I ask this since the term "absurd" should be in the context of similar types of markets, right? Or is this "absurd" comment coming from an amateur with absolutely no basis of understanding what is typical and/or expected in a highly participated, yet thinly produced market?

Not trying to pick on you, I am just making the point that lots of technical details can sound weird to a layman, but be fairly normal within the operations of a certain environment, right?

 

Bingo. Both President Bush & President Obama have accused Wall Street of manipulating oil prices. What they both referred to as "speculators". So the point is proved.

 

Lol. Politicians blaming "greedy speculators" is PROOF of something huh? Dang, I guess every single president in our history is right that it haas been "greedy speculators" and not their bad policy all along.

I believe high gold prices are the work of "speculators". Am I right? Is it now "proven"? Or maybe this only works if I am President and I have a much higher vested interest in blaming others for market actions.

Btw, do you know the market definition of a speculator Fatima? Its a lot different than public opinion is, and politicians have used this fact for centuries.

 

I've asked a simple a simple question about silver demand & supply vs the market pricing. I didn't ask about oil, natural gas or the Nasdaq. IMO those are irrelevant UNLESS an analogy can be established with silver. You apparently can't do this. The question wasn't even directed at you but since you decided to jump in then please discuss it rather than to start casting insults at me when you can't defend what you say.

 

I say it's better proof than someone who has told everyone he knows about commodities trading, then doesn't realize that gold and silver are not traded in the very exchange he visited. Doesn't know there are different rules between the exchanges, and even advises someone on how a silver trade takes place on the CME when no such thing ever occurs. In fact knows very little about most of these things which can be easily checked on the web.

Even presidents, the ultimate politician, knows better than this sort of thing. However this isn't doing anything to address the question that I asked about silver.

 

A political announcement is hardly proof of manipulation. If there was even a tiny shred of evidence, the matter would have been turned over to a prosecutor. As things stand, you, bush and obama are doing the same thing -- making unsupportable claims to avoid criticism. Also, speculation is not a crime. It's normal market participation just about everywhere at everytime in every free market in history.

 

It's probably less precise that the difference between the CME and the Comex.

 

It's equivalent to the same amount of proof that you have given. In fact since they went on TV and said it more than once, I'd say they have more skin in the game.

Now if you wish to actually explain how the mechanics of silver supply and demand reflect the pricing of the Comex, which is what I asked, then you might have something that would either prove Ineflexion's points (which IS what this is about) or not.

 

I was referring to talking to a VP of the CME GROUP. Learn to read and understand the CME GROUP owns COMEX, or didn't you know that?

Btw, this coming from the poster in post #13 of this thread stated the most laughably wrong statement on CT in its history. Are we going to admit we are wrong yet Fatima, or are we going to again baffle the board with BS hoping we all forget how laughable wrong your comments are?

 

So we have a situation where everyone here can either believe all markets are manipulated because fatima, bush and obama say so, or look at the history of market fluctuations in all sorts of markets for securities, commodities, etc... over the past 100 years and decide for themselves what constitutes normal behavior. We both know that trying to provide proof to you is a game you like to play to confuse the issue when you have been proved wrong. Inflexion's points have been proven suspect if not entirely refuted by anyone who looks at the information in this thread. The burden of proof is on those who claim manipulation. Merely stating manipulation exists with no evidence is a very weak position to be in. But everyone is free to believe what they wish.

 

He showed you how silver volatility was basically equal to oil volatility. Makes sense, no, since one is required in large quantities to produce the other.

Any other "proof" required would be from your side proving why these twin volatilities do NOT account for each other. YOU made the statement why they were volatile, HE showed you an explanation. Cloud has answered your question.