Unique Bullion Coin in 25th Anniversary Set?

Since modern die come from a central location, it may be very difficult to attribute a marker to any particular branch mint. What we think might be a variety unique to SF may be the result of an evolutionary shift in the die making process that is acquired by any and all die manufactured during a particular time period, and since most of the SAE die end up in WP, they may have runs of coins with the same markers. The mint does keep track of die usage in a database (DIS) that is accessible by the public through the FOIA process. If we become convinced that a variety exists, that database may hold valuable information. See http://www.usmint.gov/foia/?action=MIS.

 

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Your expertise is undisputable so here's my question.
If the S dies in question can be traced back to WP, and a new run starts. Undoubtably we now have a new population with the marked tail feather. But, would these coins also have the same finish?

 

I thought there was a difference right away, but didn't dwell on it.
After looking at the pics here for comparison, I am convinced.

I wonder if they didn't just use the same 'burnished' planchets for the whole run of 100k?
It sure looks like a burnished planchet was used for the 'business strike' coin.
Doesn't look like any business strike to me.

 

The next question will be:
Did ALL 100k sets get the 'special' business strike example, or did only some sets get it, while others got "real" business strikes?

It could be like the 08 rev 07 all over again, where everyone ordered the same coin, but some got one variety, and others got the 'special' variety.

Edit:
Imagine that they had plenty of the regular strikes sitting in reserve for this set, but bullion sales cut into that reserve it bit, say it got down to 40k reserve... So then they have to make up 60k all the sudden, and only have the burnished planchets to work from by that point, they are in a hurry afterall, so they just go with it. Now you have 100k sets, with some having the reserved business strikes, and some having the 'stand in' strikes made from what they had on hand, burnished planchets.

Just a theory...
???

 

Above is my revised post #78. It was late last night and I now see YoYoSpin posted a pic of a 25th coin and an S Less S. So, the post should read as revised above.

 

Yep! I know YoYoSpin contacted NGC about the finish, but I don't know if he discussed the die marker. Waiting for YoYo to post a reply when he receives it from NGC.

 

Makes since. Could also be they prepared special dies just for the 25th set. I know this thread discusses the 25th set bullion coin, but I think close comparisons of the other two (proof & w unc) should also be done. I don’t have the coins to compare, so I’ll leave that to another.

 

SilverHaired was the first to discover the feather dent marker...on his coin. I simply verified it on my coins...see this link for the details: http://www.cointalk.com/t195120/

 

It is my understanding that SF had almost one million bullion strikes in stock around the time they started putting these sets together but even so, it is my best guess that they either used only those, or if there weren't actually 100,000 then they they probably wouldn't used any and would have struck fresh for use in the sets. I didn't mean to imply that SF die came out of WP, just that all die come out of a single source, more likely Philly or a distinct die center. Anyway the real point is that the likelihood of any special sort of die being used for the bullion coins is extremely slim. If anything out of the ordinary happened (which assumes that a special run was made), the most likely things are that either burnished planchets were used for bullion strikes (which really doesn't have a huge effect on the finish on the coin but does make for more consistent, less flawed coins) or the bullion coins were struck at the uncirculated force setting, or possibly both. I really do want to stress that the burnished finish on the uncirculated planchets does not carry through to the coin finish. The strike forces obliterate that finish and impart the die surface in opposite to the coin. What the burnishing does is minimize and planchet flaws that might survive the striking process. It is similar to the high polishing done to proof planchets, that isn't what creates the mirror on the coin, it only improves it by starting with a surface that closely resembles that of the die. The burnishing or polishing also extends die life a little because the planchets aren't as likely to cause die wear via defects hitting the die and wearing it down.

So, I don't think that we are going to find any die varieties that are unique to SF, or if there are any they are unique to one or a very small number of die sets and not the entire 100,000 coins. If that is the case, there are every bit as likely to be die varieties at WP (proof, unc, bullion) P (RP), and SF (unc, bullion). I don't think there is a physical common ancestor in the die family tree for the proof / reverse proof / uncirculated / bullion die but I don't know for sure, it is possible. I do think that if a dedicated run of bullion strikes was done for the 25th sets that it is possible that burnished planchets were used or that the strike force was set at uncirculated levels. My personal opinion is that what we are seeing is simply normal bullion production variation, that nothing special was done, and that even if a dedicated production run occurred for the bullion coins that it was done on standard planchets and on production presses set at standard bullion forces. Even entire the 100,000 coin sample size of the 25th sets is small by bullion coin standards, accounting for only a single average day of production. I also think that what we are seeing as possible die varieties is normal die variation, not enough to be deemed true die varieties. All my opinion, no better than anyone else's at this point.

 

Thanks for the acknowledgment, YoYoSpin. It makes me feel better for opening my box, instead of keeping it sealed for possibly more money in the future.

 

Nice find Silverhaired! All that have responded so far have found the marker on their 25th Set bullions and S Uncs. None have reported finding the marker on coins not from the set. Still waiting for more to respond, so we can get a better idea of what's going on.

 

My vote is:

Burnished planchets
Unc strike forces
Special dies exclusive to 25th anniv. set

(hopefully some crafty individual made some "manual adjustments" to the dies before firing up the presses)

 

I'm leaning toward agreeing with all this, except for the strike force. My 25th bullions have the same marker as the S Uncs, except the marker on the bullions is slightly stronger, indicating more strike force. Could be that a mint employee altered the dies, but it appears to be the exact same mark on the bullions and the S Uncs and appears to be part of the design, not added afterward.

 

So exactly who is it that we need to confirm all this?
A TPG?
Some form of published expert?
The mint is probably not going to admit anything until we have outside confirmation, like they did with the 08/rev 07.

 

The mint won't acknowledge varieties if this nature. The 2008/7 issue was a matter of a completely different design being used where not intended. Minor differences in the details of tail feathers won't be recognized by the mint unless it can be traced to a design change (whether it was implemented on purpose or by mistake). If the mint didn't change the design, if the variety is an artifact the die manufacturing process, the mint won't get involved unless the artifact is major (like the 1955 dd cent) and then they will only acknowledge that it is genuine, that it came from the mint. Varieties that arise out of work done to touch up a die before use are simply part of the normal process. As a matter of fact, each and every die is slightly different, chaos at work. When those differences result in a visible, repeatable, attribute of the coins minted, a minor variety is born. This type of variety is probably limited to coins minted from a single die pair and therefore of fairly limited population. If however, it was an interim piece that was reworked to extend its life or simply make it usable in the first place (a working hub or master hub), the change may well be incremental, affecting all die and coins from that point on. I am reasonably certain that we are not looking at a design change here.

The TPGs aren't really in the variety investigation business, no matter what their service descriptions might elude to, it is not a particularly profitable enterprise. An article by a variety/error expert (someone like Mike Diamond for example), published in a widely read e/maga-zine (like the article that MD put in the Feb 14 Coin World about my error coin) should be enough to have a variety acknowledged by at least some TPGs. Often, however, a TPG won't acknowledge minor varieties unless or until they can see a profit in doing so.

 

I understand what you're saying about minor varieties, yet in this case, it may be "less minor". First, the tail feather may identify a coin from the 25th set. Yet to be determined is if the coin is actually a burnished, which is a completely different coin, sold by the Mint as such. If the coin turns out to be a no mint mark burnished with a tail feather indicator included in only the 25th set, it's little bigger deal than a minor variety.

So, that's pretty cool, which error coin was in the 2/14 CW that you identified?

 

I am not sure if there is any way to tell if a coin was minted using a burnished planchet or not. Burnishing mainly reduces planchet surface flaws that might make it through striking and show up on the finished coin. It doesn't really supply the surface texture of the minted coin. It would make for generally nicer bullion strikes but I don't think you can distinguish it on a single coin. The main things that make uncirculated coins different are the die treatment and the post strike handling (which these bullions might have received).

Take a look at http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=74013 to see my coin.
Here is a direct link to my coin in its PCGS "not an error" slab: http://forums.about.com/n/docs/docD...ins&guid=cc9c5686-9156-498a-9321-6fea4a8040bc

 

Stopped at the coin shop and had two dealers see if they could spot the non mintmark without looking at the back. Now 4 out of 4 picked wrong and chose a burnished finish (with a W or S)

 

I think we're on hold until a TPG or Coin World weighs in on this.

 

Max Spiegel of NGC posted the following on another board this morning:

"Thank you for the question. We will not be recognizing a new variety for the bullion coin in the 25th Anniversary Set. These coins will receive the 25th Anniversary Set pedigree if received in the sealed boxes, and that is enough distinction. There is otherwise no perceivable difference between the bullion coins from the set and from monster boxes."