Do you really own your AGE's and other government issued bullion??

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GDJMSP -

Your point is well taken. However, people can choose not to buy a house in a community that is going to limit their exercise of ownership. People can choose to live out in the sticks and do what they please with their property. Some people choose to live in communities that tell them what kind of flowers they are allowed to plant. Some people want a firing range in their backyard. Both situations are fine. The purchaser chooses....the convenience of the suburbs, or the freedom of the sticks.

However, money is different. One cannot choose - and the government cannot allow them to use, an alternative to the government's fiat currency. That's why the government has banned the melting of cents and nickels and that's why we are going to have congressional investigations into the sale of PM's to private citizens. Our goverment has a vested interest in controlling the economy through inflation and manipulation. They can only do that if they have total control over whatever is used to facilitate trade. Paper money. Can't manipulate, or inflate PM's...not for long anyway. That so many people are buying gold symbolizes a lack of confidence in our country's fiat currency. The political elites are scared to death. They have no intention of losing control. They have no intention of allowing the fiat system, which is taxation through inflation, to collapse.

The congressional hearings will do nothing but push up gold prices as people take them as the first "shot across the bow" for private gold owners. People will be concerned. As they should be.

 

I'm not scared. I'm informed.

 

Try it sometime, you will find out you are wrong, that they will not accept them as payment.

Yes seriously. Gold & silver were never used as money until about 2700 years ago. What about the 7000 plus years before that ? And even then they were only used as money on a small portion of the planet. It was not until about 500 years ago that gold & silver were used as money world wide.

No, the reason it couldn't work anymore was because there was not enough gold & silver in the entire world to back even the currency of the United States let alone the rest of the world.

By that reasoning gold & silver are as worthless as dirt because there are a great many other things that have far more value than gold or silver do combined.

Oddly enough you are correct for what I am saying are verifiable facts while what you are saying is mere conjecture and your own personal opinions.

 

To the OP point, yes the government has made a law saying melting cents and nickels illegal, but I do not think it would stand if challenged. There was a previous case where the courts have ruled coins are personal property, that once government puts them into circulation they do not own them anymore except to make sure someone isn't using them deceptively. Melting of your own personal property is perfectly legal, and I think if nickels and cents became worth 4x or 5x face someone would challenge the law and win. This takes money, though, and its free for government to pass an illegal law and scare smelters from melting their now inflation eroded coinage. So I am saying YES, you do own your coins and have the right to do whatever you want with them. In time this law will fall, or it will just be worth enough to export US coins out of country for smelting, as has happened to India, Philippines, and many other countries.

 

No - it is a government agency...in total.

I'm not certain of this, but I believe coinage is actually the property of the federal government, but the value of money is protected as an individual property by the takings clause of article 5.

 

Please cite the case you mention in your post. Thanks.

 

I'm not aware of any reason why one can not pay an electric bill with Silver Eagles. they are legal currency to my knowledge. You could pay with a 1795 Silver dollar as well, as stupid as that would be. This fact doesn't negate the rest of your point. the eagles are purchased as investment, without a doubt.

BTW - paying the electric bill isn't a real test. The real test is if you can pay your taxes with Silver Eagles. The value of money in our system is based on the fact that it is the only form of currency that the US Government will accept or pay with, legal tender US currency, which I believe includes Silver Eagles.

Ruben

 

GDJMSP - As to your assertion that you can't pay an electric bill with SAE's, I give you....reality.​

"American Silver Eagle bullion coins carry a face value of one dollar. This is their legal value reflecting their issue and monetization as coins. Per 31 U.S.C. § 5112(h), the coins are legal tender for all debts public and private at their face value of one dollar. This face value does not reflect their intrinsic value which is much greater and is dictated by their silver content and the metal's spot price."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Silver_Eagle#Value

In the future, you may want to verify your "verifiable facts" before declaring them verifiable. Just sayin'......

 

You want reality tommybee then why don't you practice what you preach and go pay your utilities with ASEs instead of telling others to do it...

While you are technically correct about the face value and legality of ASEs being $1 currency, your hypothetical application is unrealistic. It is highly probable that your suggestion, in action, will fall flat.

Now if you'd like to send me the equivalent each month in ASEs to what your electric bill costs, and let me be the proxy for paying your electric bill, then I will be more than happy to relieve you of your ASEs in an ongoing basis. I will sell your ASEs and make payments on your behalf.

Does the electric company take cash as a form of payment? Most paper bills from service providers instruct customers NOT to remit payment in the form of cash. Would cash, whether, paper money, coins or coined bullion not fall under that request from the utility company? You are after all in a contract with the company to pay according to their accepted forms of payment. Does your utility provider have a cash service window you can try this out sometime? I encourage you to try it with your ASEs. They will likely give you a look and call a superior who tells you to go sell your bullion elsewhere and to come back when you have the cash, check, Money Order or direct electronic transfer of funds.

 

Awwwww...Krispy comes to the defense of GDJMSP. I'll hear from Cloudsweeper in a moment, I'm sure. How sweet.

I noticed that you guys team up on anyone with the temerity to question your "verifiable" collective wisdom. How totally lame.

Now, this is part of the program where Krispy and/or Cloud huffingly tell me to "take it to another forum."

 

Since the Federal Reserve buys coinage from the US Mint and exchanges it for federal reserve notes, I would think that the holder of coins owns the coins. However, the US Code gives the following powers to the Secretary of the Treasury:

Title 31 Subtitle IV Chapter 51 Subchapter II Section 5111.(d)(1) The Secretary may prohibit or limit the exportation, melting, or treatment of United States coins when the Secretary decides the prohibition or limitation is necessary to protect the coinage of the United States.

So like many other objects, ownership does not confer the right to do anything you wish.

 

Regarding gold, it is money. If it wasn't, the central banks of the world and the IMF would not count it as a monetary reserve along with US dollars, euros, yen, etc. But it is not legal tender in the USA. Just because only one form of money is acceptable in the US for paying bills, taxes, debts, etc... does not mean that no other form of money exists.

 

Doug seems to have temporarily suspended the ban on economic posts. I'm sure it won't last long because the conversation will inevitably spin out of control. So you'd better make your points fast.

 

This simply isn't true. The Federal Reserve is not a government agency and this is proved by the fact that it's employees are not considered, do not receive benifits from, nor are paid by the federal government. Nobody in the Federal Reserve reports to any elected government official and they are exempt from any federal oversight. Money issued by the Federal Reserve is a debt obligation between the holder and the Federal Reserve and not between the holder and the US Government. In fact if you hold a US Bank Note, Silver or Gold certificate, and forgetting it's numismatic value, if you want to redeem it, these days you have to take it to a Federal Reserve bank where it will be exchanged for FRNs. If you still don't believe this, then I recommend a reading of this subject from the Federal Reserve's own website. http://www.federalreserve.gov/generalinfo/faq/faqfrbanks.htm

Here they are asked the question. You can read the answer and judge for yourself. They have an interest in keep the relationship as vague as possible as people don't want to hear and have a difficult time accepting, that their money did not come from the US Government.

As for AGEs and ASEs, as I said earlier, it's not clear where they stand. These are a class of coins that are not doled out to the public via the Federal Reserve system and thus, have not been given a direct monetary value.

 

Thanks, Cloud. Just like clockwork. Awesome.

 

No, a mod will decide if the discourse is wrong for this forum.