The next three (3) First Spouse coins were first issued on the following dates... Letitia Tyler: 07/02/09 Julia Tyler: 08/06/09 Sarah Polk: 09/03/09 This means there "should" be a Rapid Fire expiration of these coins...one (1) per month over a three (3) month period. :secret: All this...at the same time the Buchanan (Last of the Liberties!) and the Mary Lincoln are being released! There's a GREAT chance that one of these coins will have a much lower mintage than the Anna Harrision and be the new KEY to the series! :hail: Now here's the MOST IMPORTANT thing to consider... Since the William Henry Harrison coin was released on the same date as the Letitia Tyler...and old issues are "supposed" to end when the new issue begins, it's "possible" that both the Julia and Letitia Tyler coins could end on the same date...07/02/10. :rolling: :loud:That would be AWESOME for the Julia Tyler coins!!!! :high5:
yakpoo are you doing PR for the mint? I think the Lincoln one will be the ticket here, of course I dont think that enough to buy one.... When does the 2010 buffalo come out? lol
Quite the contrary...I've been writing editorials to numerous blogs and publications asking the US Mint to explicitly state whether or not their reported "Final US Mint sales" are the same as the "Final mintage" for each design. What worries me is that there's nothing in Title 31, 5112(o) that restricts the Mint from continuing to release these coins through secondary channels...the Mint's Bullion Dealer's Program, for instance. The regulation states... 1) All First Spouse coins must be minted during the same period as their associated Presidential dollar. 2) No coins can be issued beyond the maximum mintage limits. 3) No coins can be sold beyond the date the series concludes (estimated to be sometime in 2016) The Mint doesn't list First Spouse mintages on their website...they only release their "direct sales" figures through periodicals and blog sites. This gives the "impression" that the final "direct sales" figures ARE the "final mintage" figures. If that's NOT the case, the Mint may be staying just within the letter of the law of engaging in activity that might be considered by some as "fraudulent". If, on the other hand, the US Mint (in the full glory of their Bureaucratic Arrogance) say... "Screw the Public...we're the US Mint and we can be as obtuse as we care be!" :vanish: ...and these are actually the true mintage figures...well then, WHOOPEE!!! :hail: I think this is the most likely scenario...I just don't understand why the US Mint is so relucant to clarify the program's administration. I often imagine wandering around the 1915 PAN-PAC exhibition and seeing a table full of $50 rounds and octangulars on sale for $100 each and thinking..."I ain't wasting my money on those POS things!" I wasn't alive in 1915, but I am now and see post after post of CT folks saying..."I ain't wasting my money of those POS things!" WHOA! ...deja vu! :rolling:
I don't see anything in the three rules you posted that prohibits the mint from keeping the spouse dollars in a vault somewhere until someone requests them at a latter date, sometime before 2016. But, that doesn't change their "final sales" figures when the coins are being minted. Last time I checked, there were 870 Million presidential dollars sitting in a vault somewhere. You don't expect the mint to simply remelt them to make new presidential dollars with just because the minting of them is expired, do you?
As I prepared a rather lengthy response, I had and epiphany on this subject...appropriate for the Easter season! The "short answer" is...You're right, never mind. Here's a more detailed explaination of my Mea Culpa... The whole point comes down to the definition of the word...issue. The most pertainent Wiktionary definition is... Presidential dollars are "issued" from the US Mint to Federal Reserve Banks...or directly to the Public. I suspect that Presidential dollars that aren't issued directly to the public by the US Mint will be "issued" to the Federal Reserve prior to the completion of the program. The Federal Reserve can then release these coins (or not) on any schedule they desire. Therefore, the "issue" figures for Presidential dollars (reported by the Mint) closely equate to the "Final mintage" figures. First Spouse coins are a bit different. According to Title 31, 5112(o)... I was thinking the Mint could mint the maximum allowable coins and issue as many as desired directly to the public (up to the maximum mintage) then issue the rest to the "US Mint Bullion Coin Authorized Purchasers' Network" before the end of the one (1) year issuance period. Even if this was the case, the number of coins issued to the Bullion Network would have to be reflected in the "Final Sales" figures...according to Title 15. Originally, I was thinking the Mint could release additional coins through the Bullion Network, thus NOT reporting them in the "Final Sales" figures (directly from the Mint)...and, therefore, the "Final Sales" (direct to the Public) might not equate to the correct "Final Mintage" figures. Bottomline...I retract my previous skepticism of the US Mint. I was wrong...and their reported "Final Sales" actually DO equate to the "Final Mintage" of each design. :bow: This is one case where I'm really glad to admit I was wrong!! EDIT: If all this sounds confusing...it is. I think I confused myself. :rolling:
I was waiting with baited breath your response to this one... I was worried, prior to your epiphany, that the pressure you were exerting on this issue was going to get you on some sort of watch-li$t :goofer: or there'd suddenly be a missing FS collector who knew too much... LOL Seriously though, your in depth research and dissection of this series is really compelling and I enjoy reading and following along. :hammer:
Thanks Krispy...and I apologize if I got anyone as "spun up" as I was. I really thought there was a "chance" something unethical was going on here. The line "...shall be sold by the Secretary..." was imbedded in a sentence addressing a different topic...but the fact that the law stated these coins "shall be sold by the Secretary" indicates that any distribution of the coins is a "sale"...even to the Bullion Network. That means the reported "Final Sales" figures equal the "Final Mintage" figures and my concerns are mute. Of course, this is GREAT for First Spouse collectors!! :high5:
Do you know yet if other series contain that same language that final sales figures equal final mintage? or is this the first instance and maybe what we're to expect from all future series of US Mint coins? Or has this been stated in this way for some time already? I've always been curious about the continuing changes to final mintage figures and how long it takes coin mintages to be determined. There are always those annoying gaps in mintages for the last few years in Red Books.
There is already a long discussion here as to why the mint isn't hoarding the First Spouse coins. To make a long story short, you can call them and they will tell you they are melting the coins once the issuance has been withdrawn. This is also being borne out anecdotally.
I did call, but just got folks that take an sales orders. I wish we could pose these questions on their web site and get accurate explainations. I wasn't suggesting the Mint was hoarding the coins, per se. If they already had the blanks and paid the money to produce the dies, it seemed reasonable that they would mint the maximum number of coins and release them through secondary channels if/when demand picked up. It was only after investigating the difference between the meaning of "issue" and "sold" that it became clear that coins are "sold" to the Bullion Network and coins are "issued" to the Federal Reserve. I was equating the Presidential Dollar program to the First Spouse program...that's where I went wrong.
All my faux pas's aside...the original premise behind this thread is more valid than ever!! There's a good chance the Julia Tyler coins could end early. The Julia Tyler Unc sales are less than the Sarah Polk Unc...which was released a month later!! I suspect anyone still interested in this series is saving their money for the Buchanan and Lincoln coins...further advancing the prospects for the Julia Tyler. Julia Tyler could be the next KEY to the series!!! :hail:
YP's First Spouses are dyin', but we ain't cryin'..... It's gonna be a funereal summer and early fall friends as yakpoo continues to add to his harem. With the respective passing of each, he may truthfully say "They don't make them like her anymore". And verily, we too, ardent followers ( the yak-pack if you will) may well too rejoice therein. ----- Now that Anna's Demise has been realised, the fair spouse of the hero of Tippeecanoe, we're on to the Tyler Two! Wahoo!
Upside-Down Spouses I guess the new, lower "Max" mintage is improving sales! :thumb: The Margaret Taylor has been on sale for three (3) months longer than the Abigail Fillmore, but the Fillmore has already surpassed the Taylor in both Unc and Proof sales! :kewl:
