This is from a coin show from this weekend. It's nice to make a purchase in person. GERMANY, Sachsen-Albertinische Linie Johann Georg III. Elector, 1680-1691. AR Taler Dresden mint; Johann Koch, mintmaster. Obverse: Armored half-length bust right, holding sword; plumed helmet to right Reverse: coat-of-arms surmounted by eight crested helmets; I-K across lower field. . Note: Clauss & Kahnt 585b; Davenport 7642
New arrival today and I am both intrigued and fascinated with it. Its a Lübeck Hochzeitstaler (wedding taler), but what makes it unusual is the fact that it is of 1/2 taler weight (13.9 g). It has no date; it is assumed to be struck circa 1580-1582 by mint master Joachim Dalemann. It considered a broad taler at 44 mm in size. Obv: Christ, wearing nimbus crown, standing between bride and groom. Rev: Christ, wearing nimbus crown, seated to left of table, seated around, bride, groom and two other guests; in foreground below, jars. Here is where it gets interesting. I can find only a couple of comparable auctions in ascsearch.info, and neither have a specific reference. I poured through the 1905 edition of "Munzen und Medaillen Stadt und des Bisthums Lubeck" by Heinrich Behren online and found a reference on page 226. I believe I have a 1/2 weight version of Behrens 727b due to exact same obv & rev incriptions: HOMO NON SEPARARET QVOS DEVS CONIVNXIT (man would not separate what God has connected) IESVS CHRISTVS MACHET WASSER ZU GVDEM WEINN IOHA AZ (food blessing). The 1 taler weight is 51mm and 28g in weight with similar design. Typically these wedding talers are more common to Hamburg, so this is an unusual strike to say the least. Furthermore, the size and lack of attribution is a challenge, but I think the Behren is the best source given the info on the 1 taler and 2 taler versions. I would love to hear if anybody has any other ideas.
Your attribution is correct but I cannot find any reference to a Half Taler. You seem to have found something special, perhaps unlisted. Is it really 44 mm in diameter ? It must be quite thin. Künker sold the Dr. Dieter Dummler Collection of Lübeck coins and medals in 2004 (Auction 90). The Wedding Taler with a weight of 28.11 g appears as Lot 218 with the reference Behrens 727a. The note says there are 9 different die variations. There is also a 1 1/2 Wedding Taler (Lot 217, 40.8 g) with the reference Compare with Behrens 727. There is no Half Taler.
I see Künker also sold a 2 Taler (49.53 mm, 57.89 g) in September 2020 (Auction 339, Lot 317). In the note it says a similar coin was sold by CNG (Auction 88, Lot 2115) with a wrong attribution to England on the occasion of James I's marriage to Anne of Denmark. I have not checked the mintmarks but I see Künker dates the Schautaler as early 17th century rather than c.1580-82.
Apologies to all for taking this down a rabbit hole. All the research I have done is inconclusive. I suspect the cataloguers at NGC, Keunker, ARS, and Leipziger all experienced the same result. Considering the fact that there are several varieties of the Behrens 727B (1T, 1.5T, 2T weights), it seems likely that there was also an unpublished ½ taler weight struck. There was one other example recently in a Leipziger 2020 auction (https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=7525830) with similar vague classification and lack of attribution, so I suspect more exist. Here is the Behrens reference snip: I don’t know if the date of 1580 is accurate, but this is repeatedly referenced by the other Behrens 727B pieces in auctions over recent years. I am assuming a ½ taler would have been struck at the same time unless it was a restrike. The crudeness of the planchet suggest to me that it might be original to the original strikes. Examples of other auctions for the larger 1 and 1.5 issues: 1T (51mm; 28.6g) – Leipziger Oct 2018: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5386505 1T (51mm; 28.58g) – Kunker May 2019: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=6075774 [interesting to see same piece reappear in Jan 2020 Kunker in NGC holder: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=6702800] 1T (28.36g) – Kunker March 2020: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=6832117 1T (28.15g) – Kunker Jun 2020: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=7107787 1T (28.82g) – Kunker Jun 2017: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=4110755 1.5T (36.82g) – Kunker Mar 2011: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=960659 1T (28.79g) – Kunker Dec 2013: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=1815173
Just sent this coin to the 2022 NYINC Stack's Bowers Auction. 1756 Holland Ducaton Flowered Edge PCGS MS63. Only one graded for the date and type and in general hard to find in this condition.
I don't but it isn't my main focus of my collection and I need the money to fund a major Chinese coin purchase.
That is a superb piece, I kinda regret selling mine ngl since it is such a fine piece. But I need the money.
I pulled the trigger on this Hogmouth a couple days ago. It is my fourth pre-1700 Thaler sized coin, following my Saxony 3 Brothers Thaler, Dutch Lion Dollar and Archduke Ferdinand Hapsburg Thaler. I find these coins quite addictive, but it seems they are becoming a more expensive hobby as of late. It is my understanding that this Hogmouth, being from the Kremnitz mint in Hungary, is scarcer than the Austrian ones. Perhaps someone could weigh in on this. I found the history behind the “Hapsburg jaw” (aka Hogmouth) facial deformity quite interesting. Definitely a good reason why people shouldn’t marry their cousins.
Nice coin but Kremnitz issues are quite common. According to Krause World Coins 1601-1700 445000 of these Talers were struck just in 1695. Now, if you could find a Pressburg (in Hungarian Pozsony, in Slovak Presporok, today, Bratislava, the capital of Slovakia) issue, that would be something else.
May I offer up a New Zealand 1 Crown - George VI (Royal Visit) 1949 Circulating commemorative coin: Proposed Royal Tour, 1949 Silver (.500) • 28.28 g • ⌀ 38.61 mm KM# 22 200,020 minted Orange marks are on the holder
It’s still a lot more interesting of a coin than a Morgan dollar with similar mintage… What is the overall survival rate of thalers from this period? Was there ever a time when large quantities were melted? Since not many of them are heavily worn it appears that they didn’t circulate that much, but I would expect that given what a large amount of money that would have been for the average person during the 1600’s. I’m just curious where the original mintages ended up over the centuries.
Saxony Conventionsthaler 1763. Only year of issue, no idea of mintage figures Issuer Electorate of Saxony (Albertinian Line) (German states) Prince elector Frederick Christian (1763) Type Standard circulation coin Year 1763 Value 4/3 Saxon thaler = 1 Conventionsthaler = 1/10 Cologne Mark (4/3) Currency Thaler (1493-1805) Composition Silver (.833) Weight 28.8 g Diameter 43 mm Shape Round Orientation Medal alignment ↑↑ Demonetized Yes Number N# 32813 References KM# 962, Dav GT II# 2677, Schnee# 1052, Buck# 14
I have not seen any data on this but in any case so many different Talers were struck it would be impossible to generalise. Davenport lists 1904 different German secular Talers struck in the 1600s plus 994 struck by cities and ecclesiastical rulers. He also lists 2000 Talers and similar crown-sized coins issued in the rest of Europe in the 17th century. They range from presentation pieces struck in minute quantities (normally in very good condition if you find one) to large mintages of coins for circulation struck by major states. Although the average person rarely saw a Taler, they were needed for trade and government (especially military) expenditure. Some did indeed get melted and were used to strike new coins. Austria-Hungary, one of the great powers at the time, struck very large numbers of Talers for use in its extensive territories and most are still quite common in a variety of grades.
Germany Bishopric of RATZEBURG Christoph of Mecklenburg Taler (32 Schilling) 1581 Christoph, 6th son of Albrecht VII, Duke of Mecklenburg, was born in 1537. He became Administrator of the Bishopric of Ratzeburg (1554-92) at the age of 17 and and co-adjutor of the Archbishopric of Riga ((1555-69) at the age of 18. Jobs for the boys ! Happy Christmas to all and best numismatic wishes for 2022 !
I'll share one I bought this year. Dutch Republic, Utrecht province, 3 gulden 1794. There's some nice toning and contrast on this coin that pops when the light hits it just right.