Post A Coin And Its Imitation

@zumbly, I think you just nailed part of the point @John Anthony was making. I had no idea that the earliest imitations were as good as that.
...Wow. Some synapses are lighting up. Both of you are owed cordial thanks for that! This is what makes this forum as great as it is. --Yup, along the lines of Flodoard of Reims, or Guibert of Nogent, I need to drop some Cicero (thank you, in translation): 'To instruct and delight.'

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

I have a bad habit of buying the imitations and not getting the originals… I can give two medieval examples, but will limit myself to my favorite:

original
French Feudal, Champagne
Henry II, r. 1181-1197
Provins Mint, AR Denier 18.4 mm x 1.0 grams
Obv.: CASTRI PRVVINS. Comb of Champagne, 'V' made of three triangles above, annulet on either side, legend beginning at 10hr.
Rev.: +HENRI COMES. Cross Pattee, pellet in first quarter, omega in second, alpha in third, and annulet in fourth
Ref.: Roberts, 4727 variety, De Wit 512-13 variety

imitation:

Italy - Rome
Roman Senate, c. 12-13th C.
AR Denier, 17.26 mm x 0.9 grams
Obv.: [RO]M[A CAPVT] MV[N]. Legend beginning at 3hr. Comb center, S above with sun to left and moon to right
Rev.: [SENATVS . P.O.R.]. Cross patee, 1st q. moon, 2nd q. pellet, 3rd q. star, 4th q. V
Ref.: Roberts 4733 Variety
Note: Imitative of Champagne

 

@FitzNigel, I'm thinking I've got you beat, for this little minute.
Pruvins, denier of Thibaut II of Champagne (IV of Blois), 1102-1152.
(My own pictures --Now do you see why I remain in abject reliance on the ones from the dealer? ...From here, it's part of what you pay for.)

Obv. + [TE]BALT COMES (the 'S' retrograde).
Rev. Comb; (from 2 o'clock: ) PRVVINS CASTRI.
And me two Senatorial imitations. ...These admit of the vaguest kind of dating, by century, on the basis of style and minor legend variations. I grabbed the first two I saw that looked 13th century.

 

A very unusual case where the imitation is actually significantly larger than the official counterpart.

Official is 21mm:


The imitation is a full 23mm, 10% larger!

 

An answer can be found in a law of Constantius II preserved in the Codex Theodosianus (9.21.6) and dated "the day before the Ides of February in the year of the consulship of Limenius and Catullinus" (February 12, 349):

"We have learned that some metal-casters (flatularii) purge the maiorina, criminally and frequently, by separating the silver from the bronze. If any person hereafter should be apprehended in this trickery, he shall know that he has committed a capital crime. Also those persons who furnish the use of houses and lands to counterfeiters must be punished by the delivery of their property to the imperial largesses. Of course, Our Clemency must be informed of the names of such persons."

If I recall correctly, there were 3 denominations of the early FEL TEMP coins. Large coins with a right-facing bust contained about 10% silver (maiorina). Coins of similar size but with a left-facing bust contained about 5% silver (half-maiorina). The smaller "phoenix" type contained no silver (centenionalis?). Counterfeiters were apparently melting the official maiorinae, removing the silver, and reminting coins of the same type with false dies, using the remaining bronze alloy.

 

That is one slow ride to abstract minimalism. Great collecting!

 

A good idea for a thread, @John Anthony ! There are many interesting coins in this thread.

Tetradrachm of Alexander the Great:

Alexander III "the Great," Kingdom of Macedonia, AR tetradrachm, 325–323 BC, Amphipolis mint (under Antipater). Obv: Head of Herakles right, wearing lion skin. Rev: ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΥ, Zeus Aëtophoros seated left; in left field, rooster standing left. 26mm, 17.17g. Ref: Price 79; Troxell 1997, issue E3.

A Celtic imitation of this type:

Danubian Celts, AR tetradrachm, 2nd century BC. Obv: head of Herakles degraded to a knob. Rev: Zeus Aëtophoros seated l., holding eagle and sceptre; monogram in l. field (striking weakness); Z below throne; heavily blundered legend to r. Imitating the types of Philip III of Macedon. 30mm, 14.68g. Ref: Dembski 1480/1; Göbl, Ostkelten 579/13; Kostial 926/927; Slg. Flesche 743/744.

 

Some more of mine -

Satavahanas, anonymous (Sri Satakarni)


Imitation or perhaps more of a provincial type- Banavasi fabric


Apollodotus II AR drachm


A unique one-off imitation (sold several years ago to someone who needed it more than I)


Also an Indo-Parthian Gondophares drachm


Kushans, Vasudeva I


Post-Kushan "Kotah Kula" type


Gupta, Skandagupta drachm - Fire altar with three flames


Sindh anonymous (I believe the old reading was Sri Parakutta?) drachm, fire altar with three pellets

 

Here are some of my imitations - the classic barbarous radiates of Tetricus II

The real deal (but with the bust of Tetricus II, and the reverse of Tetricus I)


Nearly Tetricus II as Augustus (C PIV ESV TETRICVS CAVS). A pretty good imitation, with nearly correct legend, and good style.



Tetricus II as CESAR (spelled out in obverse legend)


A small and crude antoninianus. Bust of Tetricus II, INVICTVS reverse (copied from Victorinus)


A tiny grot. Very crude

 

Diocletian
A.D. 294
AR Argenteus
18mm 3.3g
DIOCLETIANVS AVG; laureate head right.
VIRTVS MILITVM; four tetrarchs sacrificing over tripod before gate in six turreted enclosure.
RIC VI Rome 27a




Diocletian
circa A.D. 294
17x18mm 2.4g
DIOCLETIANVS AVG; laureate head right.
VIRTVS MILITVM; four tetrarchs sacrificing over tripod before gate in six turreted enclosure.
cf. RIC VI Rome 27a

Unofficial issue

 

That imitation has a wonderfully distinct severe "barbaric" quality to it - a great coin!

 

Everybody and their mother has a VLPP imitation, but I think mine is pretty extraordinarily nice, with a degeneration that reminds me of the Sasanian drachms. Given enough time, I'm certain this style would have devolved into a series of unrecognizable dots.

 

A Falling Horseman with very nice style from Heraclea and a drunken fiasco, lol...

 

@John Anthony, you surely get extra points for the rhetorical flourish!!!

 

Ironic that the tables turned, with Rome imitating others

 

Rather fine Constantius II with a large AE2 module


Whatever this tiny 13mm thing is:

 

What a fabulous thread! Like @FitzNigel a have a lot of imitations unmatched with originals, but here's one I can do. It's a "Vandal" imitation of Honorius VIRTVS EXERCITI, overstruck on a SALVS REIPVBLICAE. (My question is: why did they bother with the overstrike? Why not leave it as is?)

Imitation:


Coin imitated:

 

I was working around to posting my barbarous LRB's but I have to share it -



Not *quite* a die match, but I'd wager that the same hand engraved both of ours!

I also have a small assortment of barbarous fallen horsemen

Original


Excellent style, but only about 13mm


Still good style, but wonky S's


These three all supposedly were found by a detectorist in the UK and are comically small, around 7-9mm

 

Quite possibly! I love the comically huge EXE on yours.

 

You can hardly tell the difference between these two but you can tell one isn't the real thing eventually!!!!

Severus Alexander denarius

Obv:– IMP ALEXANDER PIVS AVG, Laureate head right
Rev:– MARS VLTOR, Mars advancing right, holding a spear and shield
Minted in Rome, A.D. 232
References:– RIC 246, RSC 161a