I see these posted all the time on the US coins side of CT. Thought I would post a little pole for fun. I picked up this piece because it is relatively scarce and doesn't come up for sale often. On ACsearch.com there are 3 known sales. I'm sure there are others in private sales. It is not in the best of condition as you can see. Part of the reason I made the purchase was that I thought the grade was interesting. So, take a guess if you like and I will post the actual grade Saturday evening. The only thing I will add is that it is straight graded. German States Besancon 2 Groschen 1623 Obverse: City arms in circle Obverse Legend: +MONETA. CIV. IMP. BISONT. Reverse: Laureatee bust to left divides date in circle, value (2) in oval cartouche below Reverse Legend: +CAROLVS. V. IMPERATOR. Composition: Billon Diameter: 29mm
Nice coin. Tough to grade imo. Seems to be a weak strike due to lack of material for the full sized coin. I compared the details on it to a Massachusetts Pine Tree silver (Being a contemporary of sorts to this baby) and the lettering , which seems to have the strongest strike, is probably closest to an AU55. A good chance I'm waaaaaay off but fun none the less to have a crack at it. EDIT: I will add, nice purchase, decent price for the condition, seeing NGC gives massive $$$ for one in lower grades. Who'd a thunk it....
In that case, I'll go with an answer outside of the box. Granted, I'm probably incorrect, but I could see NGC giving this particular coin a grade many would find unwarranted. MS-63
I may be entirely off, but I see a decent amount of underlying luster. The lack of detail seems to be a weak strike combined with a less than perfect planchet. This is the first example I’ve encountered which makes it hard to judge, but I think it’s uncirculated. TPGs, generally speaking, do not often assign an MS-60 grade and MS-61 was not an option. That said, I will go with MS-62. Cool coin, thanks for sharing!
Definitely challenging and I’m guessing the grade is fairly high although most would think it is much lower on first glance. I went with AU 55...could be MS but I’m struggling to tell if there is evidence of wear or not.
I appreciate all of the responses and hopefully will get more before the reveal. I understand the wide range of opinions but don't want to say much more right now so that I don't give away too much.
When I look up your coin in my 2003 3rd edition 17th century World Coin Catalog it only shows 1 date for that denomination 1624 for 2 Groschen in German States/Besancon ???
OK, time for the reveal. This coin isn't actually in my hands yet as one of our guessers has figured out. Once it is I expect it to show more luster than the photos show. In my opinion, this coin is a perfect example of why the grading system in place doesn't work for all coins. I truly believe it is an uncirculated example but because of striking issues, it wouldn't be appealing to most collectors. I collect German States coinage and did not have a coin from Besancon so took advantage of picking up a reasonably priced coin. This is a scarce coin. On ngccoin.com the highest value they list is for XF at $550. I call BS on that. As I mentioned earlier, I found 3 other sales of this variety but none of them were for over $100. As an example, the below coin (not mine), sold for $40 by Heritage in 2019. As you can see it has striking issues as well but is still a more attractive piece. Heritage described this one as uncirculated as well.
Very interesting example, thanks! Do you think those things which look like horizontal scratches on the obverse were present before striking? For early modern coins, I have distinguishing between a weak strike and wear on a casual glance. I don't tend to even think about defects in the blank before striking.
Because they are basing the grade on wear and circulation only. I'm a big fan of how NGC grades there ancients and would love to see them use that on non "modern" coins.
I wonder that as well. I also see several spots in the fields that appear to remnants of a host coin. None of the other examples I have found show this so my feeling is that this is unlikely. I don't know much about the history of this area but it is not out of the realm of possibility that less than standard planchets were used.
