GTG: 1937 Antietam

I like it at 65 due to the marks on the shirt collar. Pretty color!

 

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The images posted were from PCGS. The slab photo is from Heritage. This coin sold 4 times on Heritage, all in the same slab, and at 67 money +/- (none to me, but I do own the coin). I prefer NGC for the commems, and feel it would have at best gotten a 66 there, but I'm much more comfortable at 65.

In hand under 'normal' lighting, the marks on the cheek blend or disappear into the beard, and aren't noticeable. It's only with a loupe or with bright direct lighting from certain angles do they jump out.

As for the obverse color, (which I salute PCGS for being able to really bring out) the Heritage images show the true in-hand colors. The colors are there, especially with a loup and strong lighting, but I cant reproduce it without monkeying around in Photoshop, and I'm a pretty knowledgeable photographer. The reverse looks like the PCGS image.

In any case, I like the coin, it's my only "67" in my commems, and it catapulted my registry set into the top 100 which I'm pretty happy about.

So without any further ado, and a thanks to all who participated...

 

Grading of classic commems is heavily influenced by luster and eye appeal, and this coin probably has an abundance of both that we can’t appreciate unless we see the coin in hand.

That said, the reed marks on the focal area are both unusual and severe with respect to typical surface marks found on these coins. It should automatically drop the grade of the coin at least one point.

My initial assessment was that the coin had MS66 luster and eye appeal based on the PCGS TruView and knocked off one grade for MS65. It is entirely believable that this coin has MS67 level luster and eye appeal thus netting an MS66 grade, but no matter how good the coin looks from a luster and eye appeal stand point, it seems out of place in an MS67 holder with the reed marks.

 

When a coin is graded MS-67, it should be a total pleasure to view it. There can be no, "Yes it's nice, but ..." comments. The fact that this coin has sold so many times is an indication that it not what most discriminating collectors would want for an MS-67 graded coin.

 

Here is the Antietam that is in my collection. It is in an old NGC MS-65 holder. I am buried into this financially because I bought it many years ago.

 

65

 

Not shocked. I had said 65, but it is a beautiful, clean coin. Some thought a couple of distracting marks would bring it down to 63, especially one obnoxious, pompous windbag, but many saw that it is a lustrous, beautiful coin.

 

64, nice!

 

Your point is noted and I doubt that anyone would disagree but your assigned grade of MS63 is not consistent with current TPG standards. It is readily apparent that you are grading the coin solely on the mark and view it as a grade limiter, while ignoring the premium gem luster and eye appeal. There is nothing wrong with you applying that grading method, Doug has been doing it for years, but that isn’t how the TPGs grade coins and hasn’t been since the very early years.

 

Technically the coin wasn't graded using current standards. It has been in that holder since at least 2007.

 

I addressed that, by current standards, I meant how they have graded for at least the last 25 years.

 

It depends on the series, but the last 25 years have seen big changes. I track hundreds of Morgans every month and there is a noticeable difference even when comparing the periods from 2015-2016 with 2018-2020. Plenty of toned examples are receiving larger color bumps and having noticeable marks/scratches become more acceptable.

 

No 67 with the cheek hit.

 

I’m talking specifically about the practice of using grade limiting marks to hold down the grade.

This coin has nice color and eye appeal but not the monster type that will actually result in a grade bump.

 

With this coin I agree that the color didn't bump the grade. And yes marks on their own don't always limit the grade. Although it does still happen, especially with untoned coins (reference thread below). If the toning is strong enough, then the marks are more often ignored (link #2 below).

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/guess-the-grade-barber-edition.344079/

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/is-this-a-market-acceptable-scratch-or-something-else.342238/

 

The MS-63 was for pricing the coin. If you look at the prices for the Antietam in the low Mint State grades, according to the Gray Sheet, the numbers from MS-60 to 65 are flat. It only goes up by $35 and an MS-60 would look like hell. Why buy an MS-60 at those prices? Search me.

MS-60 $425
MS-62 $435
MS-63 $440
MS-64 $450
MS-65 $460
MS-66 $550
MS-67 $750
MS-68 $4,000

As you can see between MS-60 and MS-65, there is not that much difference. Even a CAC sticker only gets you another $15 to $20 in MS-64 and 65 which does not pay for the cost of sticker plus the postage.

 

I don’t look at price guides when grading coins. I look at the coin, give it the grade I think it deserves, and let the market decide what the corresponding price should be. I have no problem with this coin in an MS65 or MS66 holder depending on the luster.

 

I'm putting you of ignore as well. I was going to call it a 64. No need for the rude insults.

 

I think you should. If you see a situation like this where an MS-65 doesn't cost much more than an MS-60 or 62, why would you buy the lower grade piece unless somebody is selling it to you at a deep discount below the so-called market?

I always look for the last high grade before the prices to into orbit. I might not buy that grade, but I am aware of it.

 

I’m not doing that, seems like an extreme way to combat gradeflation and ensure that conditional rarities are protected.

A coin should stand on its own merit based on the 4 elements of grading.

Though I think we are kinda talking past each other here. There is a difference between assigning a grade to a coin and buying a coin that is already graded. In these guess they grade threads, I’m simply giving my opinion of what the TPGs thought the grade was. If I have personal collecting standards that differ from the TPGs that make me feel a coin is overgraded (like you do in this thread) I will definitely not buy that coin. And when purchasing coins, it is absolutely prudent to understand the pricing structure across the grading spectrum and know where the conditional rarity line falls.

It sounds like you are advocating for what Q David Bowers calls the optimum collecting grade, which is basically the pinnacle of quality and affordability.