Security Against Gold & Silver Counterfeit Coins

Tungsten is less dense than gold by only about a third of a percent. Do you think you could reliably distinguish 2.8mm from 2.81mm -- a 10-micron difference in thickness, assuming identical diameter? Do you think Gold Maples are struck to that tolerance around their entire edge? I don't think modern minting technology is quite that precise.

 

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Right. But Tungsten is not ridiculously cheap, or anything. So it is improbable it would be used to make fake 9999 1 oz coins. A large bar, yes. Now, maybe a Tungsten alloy would be used to lower the cost of the metal to make a fake .90 gold coin and to adjust the color a bit prior to gold plating to make it look even more real. But, Again, look at the Alibaba counterfeit. The coin will be made of a tungsten or tungsten alloy.

Plus, back to what we discussed about the radial lines and privy mark. Those ADDED security features make it even more difficult to counterfeit.

Yes, anything can be counterfeited, but certain things are far harder to counterfeit than others. I posit that a 9999 pure gold coin that has security features present is harder to counterfeit than an alloyed gold coin with no security features outside of its normal minting specs. Don't you agree?

Those who disagree with me may attempt to make my whole argument fall by attacking a single leg of it at a time, but that is poor form on your part. There are multiple legs to my argument: the purity of the coin is hard to counterfeit, the security features of the coin make it harder to counterfeit, and the DNA authentication adds a third layer of security.

You may also attempt to say I am arguing something that I am not. I never said "gold maple leafs cannot be counterfeited.

But if you address my true argument which is: gold Maple Leafs are the most secure gold coin and the least likely to be counterfeited successfully due to their combination of 9999 purity and present security features, there is no refutation you may offer.

 

$5 vs. $1280 per troy ounce?

And it is being used to make fake coins right now. Not gold-plated, but gold-enrobed tungsten discs, with the gold layer thick enough to support striking. I don't have the links ready to hand, but as I recall the fakes sold for about a third the price of an ounce of gold, and contained little enough gold for the manufacturer to turn a profit.

$400+ isn't cheap, but if you can reliably buy for $400 and sell for $1200, that looks like a business model. Not a legal one, but a business model.

I don't see much evidence that .999(9) gold is harder to counterfeit than .900 or 22K gold. Tungsten slugs are applicable for both.

The security features of the coin and DNA authentication may pose up-front challenges, but once those are overcome (which may already have happened), those costs get amortized across production at scale. And even if no counterfeits existed when you bought your bullion, so that you have 100% confidence it's real, that provides no guarantee for the day you're ready to sell or trade it.

When it's time to barter, the best choice will be whatever your counterparty is most comfortable with. In today's US, my best guess is that that would be US issues. But I'll freely admit that I haven't given this much thought, and I'll continue to listen to counterarguments.

 

Well, the counterfeit I posted was a tungsten core, and like Jeff posted is so close to gold sg as to not be differentiable. So that was your first leg.

The counterfeit also had the radial lines and privy mark. Maybe to YOU the counterfeits you have seen so far are differntiable, but that is not to say all are of that quality or it would not fool a lay person. That is your second leg.

The third leg? Maybe, but like I said if it makes it much more easily tracable back to certain buyers, that has the possibility of having other negative consequences.

Not trying to pick a fight, and I think its a fair discussion. I am just not as sold as how maple leaves are the premiere bullion. I have had way too many coins turn horrible due to spotting, etc. I know its just pm, but I hate to see it turn horribly ugly after just a few years, being stored in pristine condition.

 

Isn’t this the same situation that exists whenever we buy a coin of any kind? Whether bullion or numismatic, a market flooded with fakes that are indistinguishable from the real thing will kill the market for that coin. A complete set of fake Indian Head Cents can be had for $50 with free shipping if one knows where to look. Have collectors stopped buy those coins?

Countermeasures are the only defense. Whether a TPGS slab or the RCM’s measures (many more TPGS slabs are available from China than are faked RCM bullion) each requires an educated seller and consumer to protect against forgery.

The fact that the Canadians and also the British are putting money and effort into designing bullion coins that will be harder to duplicate should be applauded. When purchased through the RCM’s network of dealers, you have a very high probability of getting what you paid for. If you are buying outside the network, not so much. Those Chinese bullion fakes will have tell-tales just like slabbed Morgan fakes do. Since 2014, Silver Eagles are more vulnerable to being counterfeited than silver Maples. Has anyone bought a 2009 Gold Eagle lately without thoroughly authenticating the coin?

The thought that something will undermine the value of a coin in the future is not a reason to ignore countermeasures that do exist today. That’s like saying physical and digital security measures are a waste of money and time because they can be overcome now or may be defeated in the future. Is anyone ready to post their passwords or PINs on Facebook because someone might hack them in the future and make them superfluous?

 

I have exactly one silver Eagle in my collection for this ^ very reason!

 

And, again, no one is saying Canadian Maples are perfect and counterfeit proof. We are only saying there is nothing else better on the market. So if you care about security, the best thing to buy is the Maple.

 

I do not believe that any specific safeguard is individualized after minting, but that the 'privy' and coding in done on the die. Perhaps changed on different dies , easy to do with computerized equipment, but most of those devices are available in China/India also, so I do feel it is a publicity/press release more than actual protection. IMO, as I am not a mint member in the know. Jim

 

I think you are probably correct that it is on the die rather than individualized to each coin. The RCM says:
Every die used to produce the Gold and Silver Maple Leaf coins is laser micro-engraved with an anti-counterfeiting security mark: a textured maple leaf. Our registration process—digital non-destructive activation (DNA) technology—captures images encrypted with a string of codes, and stores these in our secure database.

However, does anyone else besides the RCM know what this code is? A counterfeiter would need to be able to reproduce that code onto their counterfeits by reproducing all of the micro textures in the exact, precise order or would need to hack the database to trick it into providing a false positive when their counterfeits were scanned with their fake textured codes.

I think both are extremely unlikely, especially the latter.

 

MyOwnPrivy - Are Gold Maple Leaves with the DNA the only 1oz gold coins you own for bullion (investment) purposes?

 

This is a little off topic, and maybe I should make a new thread for this, but does anyone have any opinion about fractional gold coins such as 1/2-oz 1/4-oz 1/10-oz or the Gold Maple Leaf 1/20-oz?

The fractional Gold Maple Leaves have the radial lines, but not the leaf privy mark with the year inside or the DNA.

I'm a layman, but having held all of the fractional gold American and Canadian fractional coins in my hands and examined them under standard magnification, I would imagine they would be extremely difficult to authenticate just because they are so small.

On the other hand, they would also be least likely to be counterfeited as it would hardly be worth the effort.

Does anyone have an opinion on this?

 

World War II was pretty disastrous in France, and gold worked well there. Food and cigarettes were sometimes better, but they deteriorate.

 

MyOwnPrivy -

I posted the following to another threat and I'd like you know your opinion about it.

I have a couple of 1oz gold coins that I think may be collectible, which I bought at a very low cost over spot, similar to what I would have paid for current year Gold Maple Leaves. One coin is a 1oz Gold Great Britain Britannia with Oriental Border 2018, another is a 1oz Gold Great Britain Two Dragons 2018. (Nice looking coins btw.)

Although I would like to stick to only buying the Gold Maple Leaf for 1oz coins because of the security features, are counterfeiters really going to bother with coins of only 5k mintage?

 

Specific Gravity is underrated as an identifier. And no one is going to be able to make a convincing ML counterfeit out of Tungsten.

 

Cigarettes were the most popular currency for day to day things and chocolate was up there as well. Food was extremely valuable, but as you pointed out, it deteriorated faster than either of the above.

 

How can that be tested on a gold ML without ruining it?

 

Why do you think that? The one from Alibaba looked good, and I have seen in hand other fakes made from coated tungsten. They looked like very good fakes. Most high quality fakes I have seen of gold are tungsten based.

There are ways, I believe electrical, to tell. However, it would basically pass weight, size, and SG tests. Most would stop there UNLESS they know enough about the coin to identify problems with the design. Again, we are back to knowledge of the coin design is one of the ultimate protections a buyer can have.

Btw, I do agree radial lines and a fancy privy mark helps. Any additional coin detail added, especially high engraving, does help because it makes it all the more harder for fakers to accurately copy. In the end, though, anything like this ultimately takes a trained eye to catch the errors the fakers make. Yes, radial lines make it harder, but the lines themselves are not doing anything unless you know exactly what they should look like, just like the maple leaf, or a Britannia, or a lady walking. Benjamin Franklin invented leaf printing, and someone made a comment how he forever prevented counterfeiting. Ben said that as long as people will not examine the notes, counterfeiters will always have a "customer".

 

Do you know the melting point of Tungsten? Of all metals in pure form, tungsten has the highest melting point (3422 °C, 6192 °F). No one is making blanks. It is also a very hard metal, so the details will not strike up like pure gold, that almost bends when you look at it.
All of the counterfeits I have seen are gilt brass or copper, so they are thicker than normal to bring them up to weight.

 

You haven't been looking in the right places.

 

Yes, I posted that link a few days ago. People posting on Alibaba are taking a risk, so please understand there are more vendors than just this you can get them from. To find that listing took me about 45 seconds. If someone has the time, I am sure you can find more just on Alibaba, let alone in other sites written in Chinese.

Either become an expert in authenticating the coins, or KNOW YOUR DEALER. I keep saying it, and some people think I am wrong, so whatever.