[Poll-14] #13 frankjg vs #20 Nicholas Molinari (Round 1) CIT 2018

Welcome to Round 1 of CIT 2018! If you are unaware of the tournament I invite you to get caught up with all the fun on the following link:

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/an...annual-coin-imperator-tournament-2018.320328/



I want to give a special thank you to the participants for volunteering to play the game. We have a great group of people here at CT.

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#13 @frankjg


Greek, Bronze, Onkia
Kamerina, Sicily, 420-405BC
13.4mm, 1.179g
Ovb - Facing head of Medusa (Gorgonian), smooth neat hair tied with ribbon, symmetrical locks on forehead, protruding tongue
Rev - Owl standing right on right leg, head facing, lizard with head down in left talon, one pellet (mark of value) in exurgue
Mint Mark - KAMA (upward on right)
Other - A (control mark)

Price: $40

Why It's Cool:
This particular coin, my first from Sicily, was minted at Kamerina, which no longer exists (abandoned 853AD) but was situated to the south of Scogliti Sicily, where my wife's grandfather was born and lived until he was eight and left for the US with his family.

Kamerina was protected by a swamp to it's north, which was suspected of causing a disease outbreak. In 405 BC, An oracle warned the leaders not to drain the swamp, however, the advice was ignored and the swamp was drained. Taking advantage of this error, the armies of Carthage attacked the city and killed or enslaved nearly everyone. This coin could very well have been present for the destruction of the city.

Side Note - If you ever find yourself in Scogliti, please do yourself a favor and eat at il Sakalleo. It is the most amazing seafood restaurant I have ever experienced.

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#20 @Nicholas Molinari


SICILY: Mamar, bronze hemilitron, c. 409 to 403 B.C.
Dia.: 20 mm
Wt.: 4.68 g
Obv: Forepart of Acheloios Himera as a man-faced bull to left, M-A-M-A-P surrounding, dotted border.
Rev: Winged nymph holding bandage and flying left, spring erupting before, five dots surrounding.
Imhoof-Blumer, MG (1883), 22, pl. B, no. 7; BMC Sicily 240, no. 1; Campana 1; MSP I, 45.

Price: $500

Why It’s Cool:
There are only seven known specimens of this coin, including this example.

This coin features a local embodiment of Acheloios, and is therefore by nature better than any coin not featuring Acheloios (probably like frankjg’s coin ). Also, the root of Mamar presumably stems from Oscan Mars, indicating the group’s war-like nature. In fact, Pausanias tells us Ares aided Acheloios, so the Mars-Acheloios connection is further reinforced in an early source. The best theory is that the Mamar were Campanian mercenaries originally employed by Carthaginians but later by Dionysius I, those same mercenaries mentioned by Diodorus Siculus (14.1.3; 58.2). Vivat Acheloios!

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A Gentle Reminder
We have had a remarkably fun and friendly tournament so far and I want to thank all of our members who have contributed and commented Let's continue to do a good job of keeping our tournament friendly! Instead of focusing comments too much on why you didn't vote for one coin over the other try to focus on why you did vote for the one you chose!

Remember that everyone gets 3 votes to choose which coin you think comes out on top in each of the three categories. With that I will open the floor to comments, pile-ons and shameless lobbying.

 

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Going to have to think alot about this one!

 

I LOVE SICILIAN COINS!!! This must've been planned! I hope others pile on with their Sicilian cons!! I just got a teeni tiny Kamerinian...
Sicily,Onkia,Kamerina,
c. 420-410 BC; AE (g 1,2;
mm 11; h9); Gorgoneion,
Rv. KAMA, owl standing r.,
holding lizard; in ex. pellet.
CNS III

 

I really like both of the contested coins. This is a tough decision.


Here are some coins of Sicily



Heraclius and Heraclius Constantine, AE Follis. Sicilian mint. Counterstamped, re-used SB809 (large M) types. No legend, oval punch containing facing busts of Heraclius, withlongbeard, on left and Heraclius Constantine, on right, both crowned and wearing chlamys, cross between their heads, all within oval punch stamped over the host coin obverse, / no legend, Large RTh monogram and SCs in circular punch over the original reverse (large M, SB 809); no mintmark. SB 884, DOC 243.



Constans II, AE Follis, Syracuse. MPER CONST, crowned, unbearded bust facing, wearing chlamys, holding cross on globe / large m (lower case, ANA to left, NEOS to right, large SCS, or SCs preceded by officina letter below. SB 1103, MIB 204a-c.



Constans II, AE Follis, Syracuse. MPER CONST, crowned bust facing with long beard, wearing chlamys, holding cross on globe / large M, TKw-like monogram above, SCL below (no exergual line). SB 1107, DOC 178.


Constantine V and Leo IV. 751-775 AD. AE Follis. Syracuse mint. K-LEWN to right and left of Constantine V, bearded on left, and Leo IV, beardless on right, standing facing (usually three-quarter length), each wearing crown and chlamys and holding akakia in arm across their chests; cross between their heads / ΛEON-ΔECΠ downwards to left and right, Leo III, bearded, half-length, standing facing, wearing crown and chlamys and holding cross potent. SB 1569, DOC 19.



Leo V, AE Follis, 813-820 AD, Syracuse. L to left, EO and star to right, crowned bust facing wearing loros, with short beard, holding cross potent / KONCT, C-I across fields, Constantine, crowned, wearing chlamys, no beard, bust facing, holding cross on globe. SB 1636, DOC 17.

 

Wow, battle of the Sicilian coins!

While I appreciate @Nicholas Molinari's point about any coin with Acheloios being by nature better than a coin without it, I think @frankjg's Kamarina is historically cool for circulating at the time of the city's destruction. In my mind, I also gave him bonus points for including a restaurant recommendation in his writeup . Ultimately, though, I had to go with Nick's in the interest category for that rarity factor and just because I'd never seen an MFB from Himera before.

As for the other two categories, it was one a piece. Fun matchup, guys!

 

Another tough decision.

 

Props to @frankjg for also posting a corroded Sicilian bronze. The Mamar were the type of group that would be employed to destroy Kamarina (and the time matches). That might mean it is fitting for the Mamar coin to triumph here, but perhaps it is time for the Kamarinans to get their revenge!

 

Not from Himera the city. Himera was was probably the name of the local river, hence Acheloios Himera. There were a few rivers named Himera in Sicily, I think.

 

I clearly wasn’t reading carefully . Thanks for clarifying!

 

Oooooh, it's going to be a close race!

@frankjg, I lack a front-facing gorgon/owl & lizard bronze of Kamarina but here are the other two types:


Kamarina. AE tetras, 420-405 BCE


Kamarina. AE tetras, 420-405 BCE

Nice trash talk, Nickie!
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As Curtis pointed out though, "Bargain" can be legitimately interpreted in at least two different ways: 1) a bargain compared to others of its type and 2) an inexpensive ancient coin. The trend on CoinTalk seems to be to interpret "bargain" as the latter. I'm using interpretation #1 in this contest (while also factoring in rarity).

While not immediately apparent, a check of ACsearch and sales prices confirms that Nick did acquire this coin for a comparative bargain. Frank's coin, while a bargain simply because of the low price, when compared to other Kamarina facing gorgon bronzes, is not a bargain. There are many in recent auction archives which are as cheap or cheaper but with better preservation.
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Here one of my only MFBs, not from the rare locale of Mamar but a favorite in my collection:


SICILY, Selinos.
Circa 410 BCE
AR litra, 11mm, 0.76 g, 1h
Obv: nymph seated left on rock, right hand raised above her head, extending her left hand to touch coiled serpent before her; selinon leaf above
Rev: man-faced bull standing right; ΣEΛINONTIOΣ above; in exergue, fish right
Ref: Potamikon, p. 116 figure 152 (this coin); HGC 2, 1229; SNG ANS 711–2 var. (ethnic); SNG Ashmolean 1904–5; SNG Lloyd 1270 var. (same); Basel –; Dewing –; Rizzo pl. XXXIII, 6. Rare.
ex MoneyMuseum, Zurich;
ex Leu 79 (31 October 2000), lot 404;
ex Athos Moretti collection, #482, unpublished manuscript.

 

I can't decide right now myself either : tough, tough, tough !

Q

 

Great coins @Nicholas Molinari and @frankjg , this one will go down to the wire.

I love how both of these coins circulated around the same time, on the same island, 2,400 years ago. Then got dug up, moved to another continent, and came back together for today's battle. Fun match!

Beautiful examples @TIF . A nice Kamarina is on my list but I've just been too picky on what I want out of the helmet detail. Yours are great.

I will add a 3rd bargain interpretation to the above. 3) Amount of interest / beauty / enjoyment per dollar spent. I often find myself voting with this interpretation if I'm on the fence for this vote. This is how I judge "bargain" for the purposes of my own collection anyway. Since I never intend to sell any of my coins the market resale value to me is largely irrelevant... I feel good about a purchase if I like it significantly more than the money I spent on it. . It's very subjective, but nothing wrong with that.

 

It was quite the bargain. I was offered about 280 GBP from another client not to but the piece after I’d won. Apparently, he forgot to place his last second bid, which would have blown away mine. It was fate, I think!

 

While both (1) and (3) are legitimate ways to vote in the "best bargain" category, I don't think (2) is. Clearly a $5 coin can still be a rip-off, and no rip-off should get a single vote on best bargain!

I suspect TIF actually agrees but just wasn't wanting to imply that most people are voting on illegitimate grounds. (Apparently I'm OK with implying that... )

Here's a refinement of (1). There's (1a) a bargain compared to others of its type (TIF's phrasing), and (1b) a bargain compared to others of its type as categorized according to the interests of the voter. The voter might not care about minor varieties, while the player does; or the voter might not care about half a grade's difference, though the player does. It seems OK to me for the voter to prioritize what matters to them, although some consideration should be given to what matters to the player also. That is, a combo of (1a) and (1b) is OK. (And just 1a is OK too.)

Bored of analysis yet?

For the reasons TIF states, and on any version of (1), I would say Nick's coin is clearly the winner in the bargain category! Perhaps some vote changes are in order.

Here's a bit of added numismatic interest that applies to both coins: Sicily introduced the very first token bronze coinage to replace the ridiculously inconvenient tiny silver fractions, and the rest of the Mediterranean world soon followed their lead. Both coins are among the first of these bronze coins to be produced. That is pretty cool! I really want an example but don't have one yet.

 

Actually, I've changed my mind... I don't think this is quite right, since interest basically never increases linearly with price. It gives too high a score to 1 cent slugs. The measure should be: Amount of interest/ beauty/ enjoyment compared to other similarly priced coins (without regard to type).

 

I disagree. I don't think interest would need to increase linearly with price for this to be legitimate because other factors would make up the difference. It's like saying that a $100 coin should have ten times more factors working in its favor that a $10 coin for them to be the same value / bargain. If the $100 coin only has nine times more going for it then the $10 coin wins as a better deal in bang-for-buck according to that voter's definitions. Beauty, interest enjoyment, learning opportunity all play a part.

To be honest ANY reason is legitimate in my opinion though as long as there IS a thought out reason (including reason 2). The very thing that a voter might find interesting about an ancient coin is that there are authentic ones for an inexpensive price. A coin that costs hundreds / thousands of dollars might be an extra cool bargain to those of us who already know that budget coins exist but to someone who is just finding that out in the polls the ability to hold a 1000+ year old piece of history in their hands for a mere couple of dollars might be a bargain in a way that many of us collectors have lost the ability to appreciate.

Even on the more expensive coins, those who have taken the time in their write up to justify why it's a bargain are faring better than those who did not. I think that is because it provides a reason for those of us voters who might have missed that aspect if it wasn't spelled out for them.

 

I agree with this. Some reasons may be better than others, but even that is a subjective call

 

Maybe the problem is the y-intercept. That first dollar is worth a lot... it's an ancient coin vs... it's nothing! A $100 coin shouldn't have to multiply that first dollar's worth of coinjoyment by a hundred times. Maybe if we defined the bargain value of a $1 slug to be zero it would work; but I still think there would be a problem, because the improvement in coinjoyment is similarly unbalanced for the difference between a $1 slug and a $10 coin, and a $100 coin shouldn't have to multiply that by 10. Does that make sense?

But my (1b) takes care of that case.

I can go with that...

... but I can't follow all the way. If we iterate ---> nihilism! So yes, it's somewhat subjective what reasons are better than others, but again there are (objective) reasons for a ranking. (A ranking of reasons for ranking? )

 

I have held off voting on the eye appeal factor because on my monitor frankjg's pic is too dark for me to make out much detail. It must just be my monitor since others don't seem to have any trouble seeing it.

 

Wow! Tough choice. I'll have to think about this one for awhile!