Artificial or Natural Toning on Morgan

Natural or not...it's pretty!

 

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@GDJMSP .... Exactly... and there are other methods as well.... really not difficult and the results are undetectable by any means simply because it is 'accelerated' tarnish...the same environmental ingredients that promote natural tarnish, just introduced in a manner to make it happen fast instead of in years.

 

@heavycam.monstervam

I'm also from "Missouri" - show me! I don't believe anything someone - anyone, tells me until I see it/do it for myself.

Well, you'll need to keep looking until you believe; but I HAVE SEEN IT done right in front of my face. I've even "played around" myself in order to learn what to look for. I recommend you have a fume hood if you wish to get serious.

Doug has given all you coin doctors some tips.

Take what Doug said to the bank: "No matter how many pictures somebody posted..." Absolutely true. I almost wrote to point out this obvious flaw in your post after reading your request for images on the previous page. ..."the only way you'd ever believe it is if you saw them tone a coin live and in person while you stood there and watched!" AMEN!

BTW, good luck finding someone as famous as Bugs Bunny to give you a demonstration.

 

I know that post wasn't directed at me proper, but personally, I would've been a believer with simple before and after pics where the coin pictured in both sets of pics was clearly the same, no need for me to breathe over the shoulder of a coin doctor.

If a thread was posted with a toned coin that appears NT, and the OP asked "NT or AT?" and after he got his responses, he posted a picture of the same coin that he took hours/days/weeks--whatever period of time--before he worked his magic and said, "well this is the same coin before I worked on it"--if that happened I'd be sold and I wouldn't look at toned coins the same way again.

I've yet to see such a thread, and every time someone says that they can tone coins, and they back it up by posting results, it is always the obvious AT examples akin to the ones I posted earlier in this thread.

This is not to say I haven't seen plenty of posts of people posting before and afters of coins that had toned overtime in a Dansco, or in an envelope, or in a drawer, or on a windowsill, all after considerable amounts of time. Sure those exist. But I cannot recall a post, on this forum or elsewhere, where a coin doctor claimed to be able to tone coins, and gave examples of his work where it didn't turn out to be obvious AT coins.

At the end of the day, I get it. I understand your point, and I'm buying what you're selling.

 

MALARKEY! It is extremely difficult to artificially tone coins and replicate toning patterns found on naturally toned coins. If it weren't difficult, the number of rainbow toned coins in TPG plastic would have skyrocketed by now destroying both their rarity, and associated price premium. The truth is that it takes a very skilled coin doctor to get passed the TPGs and even they don't bat 1.000. The overwhelming majority of coin doctors produce stuff similar to what Travis showed.

The coin graders have no way of knowing the intent of every person who owned the coin when they evaluate it. As such, you can't use intent as a criteria for determining the originality of toning. Is deliberately placing a coin in a Wayte Raymond holder AT because the owner of the coin knows that those holders produce toning quicker than others? If someone stores their coins in a hot humid attic devoid of the knowledge that the environment will produce toning, are the coins then considered NT?

That is a poor excuse and you know it. Furthermore, you hate toned coins and have spent countless hours try to destroy the toned coin market by posting propaganda on the CU forum for over a decade. The easiest way to destroy the toned coin market is to increase the number of AT coins in graded holders so that collectors lose faith in the ability of the TPGs to weed out questionably toned coins.

There are only two reasons not to post "this stuff". First, you would be publicly admitting to using a deceptive practice that would detrimentally affect your ability to profit from it. This is the reason coin doctors don't divulge their methods. The second reason is that you can't actually replicate rainbow toning that would pass muster at the TPGs and are basically blowing smoke.

I've been on the coin forums for over a decade as well and in all that time, not one person has ever proved that they can successfully replicate market acceptable rainbow toning. Those that claim the skill always hide behind the "proliferation of AT" excuse for not showing their proof.

This is a perfect example of why you can't use intent when grading a coin with respect to toning. You certainly didn't intend for that Silver Eagle to roll under the safe, but just because the toning formed without your knowledge doesn't make it natural.

Tmoneyeagles stated correctly that different series and metal compositions develop established toning patterns with common color schemes based on traditional storage methods. For example, bag toning on Morgan Dollars often produce fantastic rainbow toning across one side of the coin. Coins stored in albums like Danscos will often develop target toning. Some classic Commemoratives develop tab toning due to the government packaging. My point is that nobody deliberately stores their coins under a safe in a basement and the toning produced was probably so different from what the graders at the TPGs typically encounter on Silver Eagles that they had no choice but to deem the toning questionable and put the coin in a problem holder. And while you might lament the fact that you didn't purposefully try to tone that coin, your carelessness in handling the coin caused the improper storage that led to the questionable toning. In other words, your actions created a problem coin, and the TPG graded it as such. So what is the problem?

The graders at the TPGs have absolutely no information about the history of the storage conditions of the coin they are grading. And most of the toned coins they grade are decades, if not centuries old. All they can do is look at the toning and decide whether or not the toning fits the accepted patterns and color schemes associated with that type (and year) of coin. It is not black and white, it is a sliding scale. Some coins are easily identifiable as either AT or NT, but there are coins in the middle that are basically a guessing game. I made this example years ago using Jefferson Nickels.





The point of this graphic is to show how different coins present a problem to the graders. The far left coin will get bagged for questionable toning 10 out of 10 times. The far right coin will grade problem free 10 out of 10 times. But what about the 1963 with the Borderline QT/MA tag, how often will that grade problem free? The coin currently resides in an MS67* holder but if I cracked it out and resubmitted it, my guess is that it doesn't grade more than 20% of the time. While Jefferson Nickels can exhibit pretty dramatic toning, the pattern and color scheme on this coin don't match with what is usually found on album toned Jeffersons.

 

When I see coins with perfect rainbows, (in a very short time frame) I tend to think they are AT.
That doesn't mean they are, and that doesn't mean they won't straight grade.
That's just what my brain is telling me.

 

The point of this graphic is to show how different coins present a problem to the graders. The far left coin will get bagged for questionable toning 10 out of 10 times. The far right coin will grade problem free 10 out of 10 times. But what about the 1963 with the Borderline QT/MA tag, how often will that grade problem free? The coin currently resides in an MS67* holder but if I cracked it out and resubmitted it, my guess is that it doesn't grade more than 20% of the time. While Jefferson Nickels can exhibit pretty dramatic toning, the pattern and color scheme on this coin don't match with what is usually found on album toned Jeffersons.[/QUOTE]


While I completely agree that the AT example is AT.......To me.....However I think it has a real goods shot to be straight graded by one major TPG, while the other major TPG would call it UNC details AT..The other two in the top line, I believe would straight grade for one TPG and the other TPG would probably not straight grade 50% or higher. I agree with your thoughts that QT/MA coin with the current TPA's slab it appears to reside in would only make straight grade maybe 20% of the time. However I think the other major TPG would slab it at a much higher rate 80%+. Always an interesting topic.

 

What method? Ive got junk silver I wanna experiment with cuz I do chemistry lol

 

You forgot to quote me.

 

How have your experimented on coins aged? ...I'm of the opinion accelerated toning will continue toning at an accelerated rate because the elements which cause the toning are more concentrated on the surface than they would be otherwise.

 

Is silver that volatile? does it need continued (contaminants) or is it able to survive as an entity?

 

Silver is highly reactive. Not very stable as a metal in contact with many things.

 

The number or toned coins didn't skyrocket, they were always there, hidden away because nobody wanted them. Before the internet, people preferred blast white coins. B&M coin dealers either dipped toned coins or kept them out of sight for the occasional customer who liked them.

The boom of the toned coin market coincided with the internet boom and advances in digital photography. Once people could take digital photographs and post their photos of rainbow toned coins online, the demand for those coins skyrocketed and the hidden supplies came out of the woodwork.

And just like you have tried to convince me that the boom in rainbow toned coins starting in the late 90's is caused by coin doctors and artificial toning, so have I tried to convince you that my theory is correct.

Even today, on this very forum, a newbie will sign up, see a thread about rainbow toned coins, and voice their amazement because they had no idea that coins like that even existed. It happens all the time.

As for you statement that the reason why they don't skyrocket more is because "they have no desire to kill the golden goose," that is very interesting. You are claiming that the number of AT coins being introduced into the market is controlled as to maintain high price premiums. If you create too many, and they become too common place, nobody will pay a premium, correct? But earlier in this very thread, you espoused how easy it is to create AT coins. The thing is Doug, you can't have it both ways. If it is easy to AT coins, and anyone can do it, it is impossible to control the number of coins entering the market. Each individual coin doctor would be making his own coins and would have no concern or control over the multitude of other coin doctors doing the same thing. In order to control the population of AT coins entering the market, the knowledge of how to AT coins would need to be limited to a small number or coin doctors, which would by definition mean that AT coins that can fool the TPGS is NOT EASY!

And I actually agree with you about your basic premise. There are coin doctors who can fool the TPGs, but none of those guys bat anywhere near 1.000 which means they incur risk of failure, which hurts their profit margins. I also agree that those coin doctors never divulge their secrets and are careful not to release too many coins at one time in order to both, avoid detection and maintain price premiums. That said, the number of coins created by these coin doctors pales in comparison to the number of toned coins generated by nature.

Now that I have agreed with some of your points, will you concede that it is impossible to control AT populations if ATing coins was EASY?

 

Just got the 1887 S back from PCGS, "UNC Details", "Questionable Color" ah daaaaa, that's why I sent it to you! Is it artificial toning or not?!!!!?......
DERN!!!!!

 

Well said GD! I'm busting her out and sending to ANACS. Fortunately, I sent to PCGS on my 4 freebies (which ain't really free, membership and all that) I send the majority of mine Morgan's to ANACS and 95% of them go to John Roberts for VAM verification, so this ones headed their way.....hopefully they'll give me a answer and not question the question

 

I would just sell it and cut your losses.
Its the type of coin that, if cleaned, someone would try to AT it and make some $$$ off it.
I think thats what we got heeeya.
Unless, it was in Redfields basement when the peaches exploded & got juice everywhere