BITCOIN GETTING MURDERED Tonight

Go read the historical price charts of the bitcoin. Then see if you can say "pump and dump."

 

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Because governments have taxing power that the owners of Bitcoin lack.

 

Go read the historical charts for Sears, Macy's, American Motors, IBM, old AT&T, Enron, General Motors, Chrysler, US Steel, ALCOA, etc. All things go in cycles and Bitcoin will have its day, but it will fade in time. Timing is the issue as it is with all investments.

Tell me the day the replacement will appear, or Bitcoin will lose favor, and I can make a fortune either investing to that date or selling short the day before. To me Bitcoin is like buying stock in a non-existent company and you just have to have faith that someday they will build a factory and make a product, but they will not tell you what or when. The market price of Bitcoin has as a foundation the performance of .....................? what!

 

I knew someone would make that argument, and while it is probably true,
the US dollar is pretty much accepted everywhere in the world.
The ultimate fiat currency since so many other countries have faith in our money.

 

To be fair, I really don't have a dog in this fight as I don't own any bitcoin. I see it as an alternative and believe to just dismiss it as a "flavor of the month" might be a mistake. At the same time, I don't believe the hype of $5000, $10,000 or any other ridiculous value some quote in US$ for bitcoin. While it probably is "flavor of the month" right now, with regards to the current rush to buy, I don't think it will go away completely for a while. It could very well be a currency of the future, just like gold and silver might be a currency of the past, and probably are.

 

Bitcoin is growing in value, up $300 dollars since I last posted on this very forum. I don't know of anything that has gone up $300 this past month. It will continue to climb and is being accepted in more and more places, by more and more banks. I also just read how it has saved many families in the disaster they call Venezuela from starving. Of coarse on this forum I'm just a raving lunatic who doesn't know what he is talking about. I do know Bitcoin will continue to grow, will never collapse, and become accepted worldwide.

 

^^^^
How much does Bit Coin Shill pay?

 

I don't think anyone posting thinks you are a raving lunatic, but experience tells us that increases in value need to have a basis or foundation. So what was the underlying reason that Bitcoin went up?

Better earnings?
Better performance against other currencies?
Improved sales or sales forecasts?
Better or more efficient mining operations?
New industrial uses that require more raw material?
Improved economics that require a revaluation of the currency?
A change in interest rates that improved returns?
Improved employment globally?

Please help those of us who see danger in Bitcoin understand the underlying economics that lead to the higher valuation.

The only thing I can see is improved demand, but demand for what?
Secrecy?
Illegal money transfers?
Tax evasion?

Also remember in 2007 the prevailing wisdom was the real estate values only went up, so jumping in at any price was not an issue.

 

1. Bitcoin may grow as a facilitator of money movement, but yet to be proven.
2. Never is a long time, and never almost never works out
3. Might be accepted worldwide, but acceptance does not make it a legitimate currency

A product that changes in value as rapidly as Bitcoin can never be a currency because there is no stability. I don't think I would hang my hat on saving people in Venezuela. Remember, to a starving man bread is a God. Any foreign currency in a failing economy is valued by the starving.

Here is a reasonable question. If Bitcoin's primary attraction is anonymous movement of money in a secure manner, why isn't a PayPal transaction bid in the same way?

 

Reading the posts from the first page of this now is pretty funny ...

Edit: Though what's even funnier, is that after reading the whole thread, I've noticed that not a single one of you ate your words, or had the humility to admit you were horribly wrong.

I'm a technical analyst, I bought BTC on solid technicals right at those lows while y'all were screaming murder. When (good) technical analysts make bad calls, we admit we're wrong. Folks who don't lose respect quick smart.

Regarding fundamental reasoning behind appreciation, it's been stated numerous times: deflation, limited supply coupled with increasing demand.

My first introduction to this forum was Ancient Coins, quite frankly astounded by the comparative lack of informed opinion and decorum displayed here.

Regarding the future of Bitcoin, I believe Ethereum will eventually take over and I am long, it is currently trending up against BTC and up nearly 1000% year to date. Notched another record close a couple of hours ago. The big investment banks are working with Ethereum.

ETHBTC Ascending channel break with bounce off former resistance:



PS Just bought my first Ancient coins with profits from BTCUSD / ETHBTC appreciation. Just some Byzantine bronze, but will update when I notch some gold. #Diversification.

 

If Bitcoin is being used widely in illegal transactions, if it is being used to dodge taxes and if it is being used in money laundering, authorities will crack down on it. That's a sure thing.

 

Are they going to crack down on fiat money?

 

You beat me to this exact same retort.

Last I checked, the good 'ol US greenback is used in all of these things, but I can't seem to find anyone cracking down on it.

It's amazing the amount of vitriol and ill-informed / un-informed posts there are here for this.

Yes, I have skin in this game, I own a fair amount. I've made tidy profits off of it, and will continue to do so for as long as it's around. Which may be a month, a year, the rest of my lifetime. Who knows. But, I know what to look for, know where the pitfalls are, and can make informed decisions.

Agree with digital "currency" (and I use that term loosely on purpose) or not, really, it should be a good exercise in learning about the entire ecosystem. The technology behind it is amazing, and whether Bitcoin survives or not is really not the main thing.

The funny thing is that so many people are just blindly accepting the information out there about stealth, drugs and hookers. Yeah, it's been used for that, and for sure has gained quite some notoriety due to it. Then again, back to the first sentence above, so too is "cold hard cash" being used in the same capacity. This is just quicker because it's electronic.

But it's quite ironic that the very thing that made Bitcoin (and the other alts) what it is today - the Blockchain - is being used to provide transparency and full histories of transactions and is being adopted to many industries, especially those of Finance where auditing is a must.

If you can understand what drives the movement of the Crypto coins, you can make a tidy profit with lesser risk. Pump and dump is no longer really an option with Bitcoin due to its market cap, size, and profitable ecosystem. Smaller alts, yep, you can pump and dump all day long.

I'd happily get into some discussions on it, if anyone is able to be open-minded and willing to understand and debate rationally.

 

The illegal discussion is out of date, the darkweb uses monero these days.

 

We probably aren't that far away from it. Sadly it probably just hasn't crossed anyone's mind, but the other thing is lost taxes hiding money in it. You can bet it is only a matter of time before EVERY first and most second world countries start to regulate it and probably pretty heavily

They already have. That is why 100s are the biggest bill, transactions over a certain amount have to be reported, reporting to customs cash over x amount ect.

 

Ok so let me take a stab at your post, see if I can make some sense.

First off, Bitcoin, or any crypto-currency, is dangerous. You are right, there is reason to be concerned. I believe the main point is that it's a black-box, it's Tech Voodoo Magic to those who don't/can't understand its underpinnings. The second is that also due to not understanding it, people see the hype and buy into it without learning anything about it, just like buying a stock on the hype only to have it fall and los your shirt.

So, that out of the way, let's dive into some of the other things.

I personally don't believe it's main usefulness is in being an alternate every-day currentcy. It can't function in that vein today, as its valuations fluctuate too wildly. Maybe it will get that stable, maybe not, time will tell. Only if it does become stable will it be useful as a currency, not before.

I believe its usefulness is:
- Speed & transaction cost. You can send money to anywhere in a matter of minutes, with very low transaction fees.
- Accountability / auditability. Build upon the above by knowing that your transaction, and all transactions are held in the Blockchain. It is simply provable that address "A" sent funds to address "B", by just looking at the transaction list in the Blockchain. And, that your transaction has to be verified by 6 different parties to be fully "confirmed" and considered finished.
- Security. Your funds, transactions, everything is protected by unbreakable (by today's standards) encryption. No middle man attacks, no intercepts, your funds go exactly where you want them to. And, as processing power increases, the software and encryption standards will adapt, increasing to keep pace.
- Semi-anonymity. People believing any crypto currency with a publicly available block chain is completely anonymous are sadly mistaken. EVERY transaction is publicly browseable, so you can for sure follow the trail if you know the addresses involved. If you can successfully associate an address with a person, you can see their complete transaction history and hold them legally accountable.
- De-centralization, independence. Bitcoin has no owner, it has no government backing it. To those that use it, that is a positive. You can buy Bitcoin in US fiat, send it to someone in Japan, they can cash it out in Yen immediately. No conversion fees, no hassle, same value.
- Self-empowerment. YOU are the bank, you hold your own funds, and can transact with anyone, anywhere. For those who have fear of banking, large institutions, etc (agree with them or not), it's perfect.

Now, moving onto what makes Bitcoin "valuable" in terms of actual fiat.

You are correct in that there is no one who "owns" Bitcoin, and no one who backs it. This is a large red flag to any traditional economic understanding and basis. This is what throws most for a loop, and why there is so much angst about why is it valuable, and why does it have value when there's nothing behind it giving it intrinsic value.

To me, the simple answer is that the value lies in what it can do, what it can be, and the ideology of what it represents. Hey, it's a hippie currency, go figure!

Yeah, take that one in. It really defies logic.

This is a much larger part of it, which will have to go into another post, this one is already too long.

But, there is a cost to "mine" Bitcoin, transact it, store it, etc. It is a self-contained cyclical system which feeds itself.

Oh, and last part is that there's only 21,000,000 full Bitcoins which will ever exist (yes, they can be split up into much smaller fragments), so it is a fixed supply which can drive price. Only 2/3 have been mined and the last one won't be mined until 2140, on a fixed release schedule that is determined by the algorithms within the software.

 

Most nations already have laws on the books about Bitcoin and what it is and how to tax it. The US has stated it is not a currency, it is an asset like gold and silver. You are expected to pay capital gains on it just like any other transaction with gold, silver, stocks, etc.

If you are planning to evade taxes, you're going to do it with whatever you have, you're not going to change your money to Bitcoin just to evade taxes. That would be risky and counter-productive. Besides, cash is the most commonly used form of money to try to avoid paying taxes with, Bitcoin is so low on that comparison scale.

There exist 500, 1000, 10000 and 100000 denomination US bills. They are still legal tender today, if you can find one (hint, check eBay). They were pulled from printing due to low usage, not any nefarious reason.

I suggest you check the IRS pages on transaction reporting, as your assumptions are suspect (although I will give you that their wording is slightly confusing):

https://www.irs.gov/publications/p1544/ar02.html

A person who wants to evade law enforcement, paying taxes, perform illegal activity, will do so, most frequently with US dollars, not Bitcoin. You are buying into the negative hype and mis-information.

 

So you are going to pay twice face to spend at face? I am well aware they existed, hence I said the cap today is 100. They were pulled for a variety of reasons and will not be back because of the ease of concealing them.

Believe what you want, it's a free country. You are very off base though and I get you want to defend it that is fine. Enjoy it for the couple years or so before it is cracked down on hard now that is it in the money ranges that get the top dogs attentions

 

Get caught tax evading or money laundering, then tell me they already haven't cracked down on it.

 

Dont know allot about bitcoin but it begs the question what back is it up monetarily?