The Shipwreck Corner

I decided to create this thread for a number of reasons and in homage to The Cob Corner thread created by @robinjojo.

My reasons are simple, @CoinFox raised the subject of shipwreck coins in general. This is a large area that covers pre-Roman to recent history and with coins to suit every pocket. My first post is about a readily available coin I bought recently on Ebay for $32.00 that has provided me with a lot of fun and interest.

Although many of the coins featured in The Cob Corner would have originated from shipwrecks, I would be uncomfortable to post anything other than Cobs on the thread as I believe it would dilute or pollute an erudite thread that is evolving into a "must go to" thread for anyone, like me, starting to collect these interesting coins. I had ignored Cobs in a lifetime of collecting because I held too many negative preconceptions about the complexity of attributing them and how to buy real ones. I'm learning a lot from the thread and enjoying the coins that are being posted.
The Shipwreck Corner is more suitable for generalists than specialists.

Here is the first coin.

S S Gairsoppa Britannia.

This coin was salvaged from a depth of more than 1000 metres deeper than the final resting place of the Titanic. The extraordinary thing about the coin is that is was minted from the silver that was originally being shipped to the Royal Mint in 1941 and lay on the seabed for more than 70 years before reaching its final destination.
I found a coin in its original packet which has an overview of the loss of the SS Gairsoppa and a DVD which features the discovery and recovery of the silver. Dollar for dollar or pound for pound this is great value, a coin and a one hour Discovery channel DVD in one packet!
Here is a thread to the sinking and the coin. See https://onlinecoin.club/Coins/Country/United_Kingdom/Silver_Quarter_Ounce_2014_Britannia/

 

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I'll have to dig out my two Atocha coins.

 

With ancient coins, one must make educated guesses where they originated from, but I have a few likely shipwreck ancient coins.

 

TIBERIUS & DIVUS AUGUSTUS AR tetradrachm. Alexandria, Egypt. TIBEPIOY KAISAR SEBASTOS, laureate head right. Reverse - QEOS SEBASTOS, radiate head of Divus Augustus right. Milne 38, Koln 48. 24mm, 8.3g.

Likely a sea-find, this coin is lighter than its contemporaries due to leaching of the baser metals.



GALBA AR silver tetradrachm. Antioch, 68-69 AD. AUTOKRATwR GALBAC KAICAR CEBACTOC, bare head right. Reverse - ETOUC B, Eagle standing facing on opposed laurel branches, head left, wreath in beak, palm in left field. Prieur 100; RPC 4198. 28mm, 10.0g.



OTHO AR silver tetradrachm. Antioch. AYTOKPATWP M OQWN KAICAP CEBACTOC, laureate head right. Reverse - ETOVC A below eagle standing left on branch with wreath in its beak, palm branch before. RPC 4199/4200. 27mm, 10.0g.



Attribution: SC 2148
Date: 104-102 BC - struck under Ariarathes VII (112-100 BC), Cappadocian Kingdom
Obverse: Diademed head right, bead and reel border
Reverse: BAΣIΛEΩΣ / ANTIOXOY / EYEP-ΓETOY, Athena standing facing, head left, holding Nike and spear, hand on grounded shield decorated with gorgoneion, ΔI monogram above A in outer left field, O-Λ across inner fields; all within laurel wreath
Size: 30.55mm
Weight: 14.54 grams
Description: VF, corrosion indicitive of a salt water sea salvage find.

 

There is a seller on Ebayer who I believe is honest but over several years he has had a propensity to describe quite a number of coins as showing "typical Tiber river wear". These are usually somewhat underweight but appear genuine . I once thought that there must be an awful lot of coins found in the Tiber and could they be sea salvaged?

 

Sorry to quibble but the first sentence that I have quoted is misleading. The second sentence seems accurate. No wonder it was so cheap.

I suggest that coins minted from recovered metal from a shipwreck are in a different category from actual coins recovered from shipwrecks. I apologize if that sounds harsh but I really don't want to encourage collectors to buy such items especially if they haven't read the marketing material carefully.

 

Thank you for commenting, I appreciate it and had not thought of your opinion. No need to apologise to me because I have confidence in the members of this forum not to make stupid decisions based on anything I might say. This is intended to be a generalist thread which is why I laboured to emphasis the difference between this thread and The Cob Corner that I consider specialist.
Maybe I should have pre-empted the thread with a warning such as "Don't think you can make money reading this thread , because you won't". I make this comment in good humour not to be facetious.
For the sake of clarity and taken from different points on each vessel , The Titanic rests at 12,500 feet and the Gairsoppa at 15,420 feet.

The question of whether something is cheap or expensive is simply the perceived value of the buyer. What I was trying to articulate is that these items can be affordable allowing access to virtually anyone, we are not considering gold aurei here or specialised collectors. Anything goes and I seek education not investment strategies. It was my mistake to mention money and I apologise for any misconception I intimated.

In some recent threads both myself and another member quoted the fact that some of these coins were initially marketed with the euphoria surrounding a new discovery or recovery at a very inflated price, however many years later, after the marketeers had finished their work, these artefacts can be purchased inexpensively. I quoted my purchase of a 2 Reales Cob at less than 1/20th the price at which it was originally sold. To an extent proving the point you make.

The ethos behind this thread is to consider the history around the coins and exomunia associated with Shipwrecks. For example, I have a coin, or strictly speaking a medallion, made from metal recovered from copper recovered from the hulk of HMS Foudroyant one of Admiral Nelson's ships that was wrecked at Blackpool. This was the ship he was in command of when he started his affair with Emma Hamilton. This too was vastly overpriced when minted but was sold to assist the funding of the British Navy at a time of the German Naval expansion. Over 100 years later I cannot see anyone buying one of these as an investment but simply as a curio. Similarly, I doubt if anyone on this forum considers the purchase of modern mint sets as an investment or at least I hope they don't.



In no way does this thread suggest or insinuate investment, that is the job for the marketing people of the Franklin Mint or US and Royal Mint.

If we consider my first example coin, the SS Gairsoppa 1/4 Britannia. There is a fascinating story behind this sinking including outstanding acts of bravery. Had the Royal Mint not produced this coin I doubt if myself or others would ever have heard of the incident. Yes, the coin was and is still cheap and that is an accolade to the people who made it who have perpetuated the memory of those who served who otherwise might have been forgotten. I don't think the Royal Mint thought they would make a mint ( please excuse the pun) by producing this coin. This coin was produced as a limited edition of 10,000 in 2014 and sold for £20 the equivalent of $33 in 2014. I see this coin as minted for education and to commemorate service and offers citizens heritage.
I am sure Disney must have minted a Pirates of the Caribbean coin but don't expect to see one here.

In my opinion, unlike the image above, the Gairsoppa coin presented value for money then with its quality packaging and DVD. 10,000 might sound a lot but the quantity of type year sets produced by both our mints is staggering,

I don't believe we need a different thread to discuss commemorative issues or anything else other than the topic headline, @nerosmyfavorite68 understood the sentiment behind the thread with his post and I hope to see Ancients to Modern coins posted by members. The subject really interests me and I am fascinated to see what is posted. I will post some more but no more mention of pricing.

 

The shipwreck salvage area is tricky for collectors that want a real artifact from an actual shipwreck. Often things purporting to be such items are sold without a certificate of authenticity from a legitimate salvage company. And due to the damage done to coins by resting in seawater they are really difficult or impossible to make a guess at authenticity -- the appearance alone is just not enough evidence. And coins put into a bezel can't even be weighed or assessed for specific gravity to see if they are close to nominal.

The point I want to make is that coin collectors need to be aware of forgeries and shipwreck coins are the easiest to forge.

 

Yes I completely agree with you @jgenn and I will make a conscious effort to raise this point on occasion. Unfortunately wherever there is money there are unscrupulous people and it really is a question of "caveat emptor".
I am an amateur maritime historian. Over the past 50 years I have amassed a hoarders number of artefacts, always for interest and amusement, amongst them many coins and medallions which I never considered to be of numismatic interest compared to my interest in Ancient coins and British coins. it is only over the past couple of years and last year in particular I began to consider higher value coins after seeing cobs at the FUN convention and visiting the Mel Fisher museum.
I posted a thread elsewhere titled " I finally found a use for slabs" because generally I don't like them but with cobs they gave me some confidence and some TPG assurances of provenance.
I always recommend new collectors to buy the book before buying the object and it is a lot easier these days with internet access to forums such as these not to make mistakes.
I was staggered to learn that even very common ancients were being forged to sell to the unwary and personally have bought forgeries despite my initial research, once buying a forgery of the same ruler and coin twice! The second mistake because I did not check it as thoroughly as I did because the vendor was a well known reputable dealer. Fortunately I was alerted by forum members and was able to return the coin.
Under the UK PAS scheme new finds are reported so an attribute to a hoard can be easily verified but of course not so "shipwreck" coins.
My interest in the Titanic is because my elder daughter was born on the anniversary date of the sinking and this piqued my interest I have visited the Titanic exhibition in Northern Ireland and Florida and bought some fridge magnets and tumblers and don't anticipate they will be antiques of the future!
Of course President Lincoln was assassinated on the same day in April and I guess I could easily find a coin for that year but that is digressing from this thread.
I'll post some more coins and medallions over the coming weeks.
I'll keep my posts to coins associated with shipwrecks because to broaden the thread to ships in general would be a huge , but interesting subject.

 

Regarding what you said about the leaching of baser metals as being likely a shipwreck coin, are there any common red herring defects that would otherwise lead someone to believe it was a shipwreck coin when it wasn't, especially while selling them?

It seems like there would be a lot of sellers who genuinely believe what they're selling is a shipwreck coin, or at least swallow the pill hoping to sell it at a higher price than if it wasn't.

 

I think a lot of assumptions are made about weight and texture because they are indicative of immersion and leaching of metals and erosion so its better to have some evidence such as an auditable COA. Some coins you can more or less assume they are from shipwrecks because so many were discovered at the same site making any other origin unlikely. The best example I can think of is the wreck of the EICS Admiral Gardner. Tens of thousands of East India Company 10 Cash coins were recovered that were being shipped in barrels. Although not 100% guaranteed it is likely that 99% of this coin and this date was salvaged from this wreck. I have seen them sell for as little as $5 and for as much as $800.
I paid $15 for this somewhat souvenir type display some years ago and there are always around 100 of these coins on Ebay. Probably the cheapest and easiest way to get into shipwreck coins from a historic wreck.


When you read Daniel Sedwick's Practical Book of Cobs he explains how coins wear dependent on how they were found so there are anomalies such as some cobs having one side badly worn where it faced the current and the other side in great condition because it was protected. Similarly you can get excellent and poor examples of the same coin because the excellent coins were in the middle of a hoard and not exposed. We see this in land found hoards also and they can be affected by soil conditions. I am sure with practice and exposure to coins you can get a pretty good idea from texture and appearance how environmental damage was caused. Attendance at coin shows is a must as you can be exposed to hundreds of coins, maybe not shipwreck coins at smaller shows, but certainly the larger shows. Most dealers are generous with their time with newbies as they are their future customers.
As for Red Herring defects I agree with you that many people hope or assume that a leached coin is a shipwreck coin and they are probably right because of the easily identified environmental damage but normally you wouldn't pay a premium for an assumption. The cachet of provenance makes them more interesting as researching the history of the ship and the circumstances of the sinking provide much of the enjoyment of collecting these artefacts.

This is a precis of the EICS Admiral Gardner shipwreck.

The EICS Admiral Gardner was a British East Indiaman that sank off the Goodwin Sands on January 24, 1809, during a voyage from India to the UK. The ship, carrying a valuable cargo of coins, tea, and spices, ran aground in severe weather, and despite the crew's efforts to prevent disaster, the vessel was overwhelmed by the storm. The ship’s captain, Samuel George, made the decision to abandon the ship, and most of the crew survived, though two men drowned.

The Admiral Gardner was a well-regarded ship, and its sinking was a significant loss for the East India Company, both in terms of human life and cargo. The wreck remained largely untouched for nearly two decades until 1833, when it was rediscovered. A team of divers, led by Peter Smith, successfully recovered a substantial portion of the valuable cargo, including a remarkable cache of coins, which were in excellent condition due to the ship’s relatively shallow burial in the sand.

 

Great thread!
Here is my
AV 8 Escudos 1751-So
Santiago Mint
Fernando VI 1746-59
From "Luz" wreck

 

Wow that's a beautiful coin @panzerman . Probably better than most that you would find above the water!

 

Yes, in hand (flip) it looks like it was struck at the mint this morning. Seems gold and saltwater get along great. Unlike silver coins.

 

I have some Atocha coins and an emerald I bought in about 2001 in the Key West museum store. I'll have to rummage those out from the depths of my safes or SDB.
Actually, maybe I buried them in the depths of the middle of my backyard pond ??

 

It’s a badly lit picture but what do you expect when I have to dive down to Davey Jones locker and avoid the Kraken just to get a picture.

 

I would love to see the loot on the San Jose.

Here is my coin from SS Central America

 

That's impressive @Clawcoins and great to have Mel Fisher's autograph, I first visited the museum 15 years ago but was never motivated to buy anything as I was focused on other things, I wish I had!

 

A Central America is on my "bucket list" @panzerman , how crazy that an MS 64 was plucked from the depths without damage.

 

These are my Sao Jose coins.