Classical Deception

I just finished reading Wayne Sayles "Classical Deception." It was a very interesting and informative book (and a worthy conclusion to his 7-part introduction to ancient coins). I have now read his entire "Ancient Coin Collecting" series, so of course now I know all the things. Haha, just kidding - there is so much left to learn!

Anyways, I wanted to have a discussion about fakes. Do you have any fakes in your collection? Do you keep a reference tray of fakes? How do you go about discovering fakes? Do you mark a fake in any way, to prevent others from being deceived?

If you have any stories, tell us about a time when you discovered a fake, or lessons learned from a fake.

Sayles also mentioned that some fakes are actually collectible (such as Becker, Christodoulous, Rosa, and others). How do you feel about knowingly and intentionally buying fakes, and paying a premium for them? Do you own any of these so-called "collectible fakes"?

I understand that fourrees and other types of ancient fakes are popular, but for the purposes of this discussion let's focus mostly on modern fakes (those made in the last few hundred years).

 

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here's a good book to read on how forgeries are made-- Numismatic Forgery by Charles Larson. the cover blurb "an illustrated, annotated guide to the practical principles, methods, and techniques employed in the private manufacture of rare coins"

There is even a section on "explosive impact copying" which involves a customized cartridge and projectile shot from a shotgun.

 

I don't knowingly have any fakes in my collection but it would not be very surprising to later find a fake or two.

There is one modern copy of an ancient coin in my collection but it probably doesn't fall under the category you wish to discuss. It is an electrotype of a rare coin owned by the British Museum. At that time (mid 1800s to early 1900s), electrotype copies were made for collectors and other museums. They were educational pieces, substitutes. They were theoretically not meant to deceive.

That Robert Ready electrotype is discussed here:

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/sometimes-a-copy-will-have-to-suffice.272376/#post-2305367

I don't know what that is but it sounds extremely interesting, enough to justify the book. Whatever "explosive impact copying" is, I want to try it!

 

I don't think I've fallen for any fakes yet (knock on wood). My purchases I've posted on CT haven't rung any bells, so if I did have a fake or two it would be among my cheaper and more common stuff, which I feel would still be an unlikely possibility. I do have a denarius that might be a fouree, though, which I will post soon. I would die inside if something like my Jovinus or my Sisebut tremissis weren't genuine.

Sign me up as well!

 

Yes, I have that book and have read it a couple of times. Very interesting stuff, along the same lines. The Larson book goes far more into detail about how the fakes were made, Sayles book seems to focus more on who made them and what types of things they made.

And yes, @TIF , the British museum electrotypes definitely fall into the category of things I'm talking about (repros made in the last few hundred years). Is there a big market for them? Feel free to post yours here (very interesting thread you linked to - thanks!)

 

This book is a good, enlightening read on the actual manufacturing methods involved. It gave me lots to consider when examining coins for purchase. Of course, if you buy from known and reputable ancient coin specialists, you can let-down your guard a bit; but even the best dealers make mistakes.

 

It destroys the original, from what I remember, but makes a "perfect" mold.

 

I have this book
4th printing 1976

 

I posted this a little while back that will provide a quick primer on the main types of forgeries one will encounter in ancients.

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/how-to-detect-forgeries.281399/

The most problematic IMO are transfer dies that are then used to strike fakes on ancient donor coins so the metal is ancient. These can be coins that sell for $20 or $200,000+. No dealer is 100% immune to having a fake get through their inspection but the good dealers will be very responsive to addressing authenticity concerns and refunds as necessary.

Here's an example that was offered for sale in CNG's Triton sale this month. This is a transfer die fake and several examples made it into the market several years ago. They should have caught it because it is reasonably well known, but I sent CNG an email bringing their attention to it and it was promptly pulled (even though it's still on SixBid, it's withdrawn on CNG's site). With an auction that includes thousands of coins, it's impossible to catch everything but the good dealers will handle authenticity concerns promptly and professionally like CNG does.

https://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?auction=3193&category=65321&lot=2667767

 

Someone had brought in a small group of Greek and Roman silver to the local shop a few years ago. The Roman coins were ok, but the Greek were fake, good fakes. I wonder if some werent, but were looked over because of the fakes. I wonder how often that happens.

 

So far I have only one fake (that I know of) that definitely fooled me, but boy is it a doozy. This was purchased on eBay around 2000:

There are several obvious signs of casting (which I leave as an exercise for the reader), but there's one even more important reason to reject this coin. The obverse and reverse are about a century apart, so there's no way they should ever be on the same coin. It's like finding a US quarter with a Barber obverse and a State Quarter reverse- even without checking for casting traces, weighing, etc. you should immediately realize that something is fishy. I really have no excuse for not catching this at the time, and I keep it as a reminder to always be vigilant in the future.

 

I actively seek out fakes and counterfeits as some of you know. I havent found any mentioned in op's post but am always on the lookout for them.

I almost picked up a Henning nickel not too long ago, but I didnt like the price.

If the piece is deceptive enough, im all over it. I believe contemporary counterfeits and modern fakes have some interesting stories behind them.

Here are my threads if you havent seen them yet

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/contemporary-counterfeits.284893/

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/dangerously-deceptive.288474/

 

Although I posted about this a few months ago, it still lingers as an example of how even longtime experts can be initially fooled by excellent fakes. This is from an NAC auction, and it wasn't until months later that NAC suspected it was a forgery:



https://www.cointalk.com/threads/hadrian-aureus-a-tale-of-subtle-differences.283959/

While I don't know for a fact that the above forgery is from a transfer die, it would seem logical that it is. It really was a spectacular coin.

 

Any ancient collector, (yes even slabbed ancients), have fakes in their collection. Accept it as part of the hobby and try your best to buy from good sellers and educate yourself.

Any collector who believes they are immune from fakes either collect horribly common, boring coins or does not understand how convincing modern fakes can be.

You cannot immunize yourself from it, no matter what or where you buy.

 

Medoraman - I am quite sure that you are correct. However, I was wondering how many slabbed/authenticated ancients that you have seen which are fake (or really, anyone else can chime in). How does this compare to the number of raw fakes you see? Just curious.

 

IMHO, of course raw there will be more fakes. However, compare slabbed coins versus ones in flips from good dealers and I bet the ratio is similar.

The "easy" fakes are always raw since any good dealer would spot them. However, harder ones won't get caught by Mr Vagi (NGC) any better than any other dealer. There is a reason NGC does not guarantee authenticity of ancient slabs.

 

This is my first - I'm not sure how to reply to this forum or whether I'm replying in the correct area, but as a lifelong Roman collector and seeing how expensive a really nice bronze can be, several years ago I came across a book by Zander H Klawans - Imitations & Inventions of Roman Coins - dealing solely with large imitation bronzes by Giovani da Cavino from his workshop in Padua Italy in the 16th Century, which are now eminently collectible especially if you can find an original struck example. Casts were made from these struck 'medallions' of which first generation casts are now very collectible and then casts from casts which can be pretty dreadful but still turn up at auction. Below is a pik of one of my trays collected over ten years or so, now becoming more difficult to win at auction but still good fun to try......Real fakes meant to fool new collectors and experienced collectors alike now abound on Ebay, mostly from workshops in Bulgaria and eastern Europe.....if it's a rare coin and cheap then it's invariably fake.
Be careful and study first

 

This is my first - I'm not sure how to reply to this forum or whether I'm replying in the correct area, but as a lifelong Roman collector and seeing how expensive a really nice bronze can be, several years ago I came across a book by Zander H Klawans - Imitations & Inventions of Roman Coins - dealing solely with large imitation bronzes by Giovani da Cavino from his workshop in Padua Italy in the 16th Century, which are now eminently collectible especially if you can find an original struck example. Casts were made from these struck 'medallions' of which first generation casts are now very collectible and then casts from casts which can be pretty dreadful but still turn up at auction. Below is a pik of one of my trays collected over ten years or so, now becoming more difficult to win at auction but still good fun to try......Real fakes meant to fool new collectors and experienced collectors alike now abound on Ebay, mostly from workshops in Bulgaria and eastern Europe.....if it's a rare coin and cheap then it's invariably fake.
Be careful and study first

 

I only see a red cross , Don.

Here's a tray out of my black cabinet, all fakes and forgeries:

 

I have a policy of destroying any fakes I come across after taking photos to document them for educational purposes. What if I die and my family sells the fakes along with the good coins (without realizing the difference obviously.) I would hate for a new collector to get hurt by that.

I have 124 coins in my collection at present, though counting the ones I've given away or sold, I've probably bought around 175 ancient coins. So far I've only documented two fakes... but then again, all my coins have come from either Vcoins, Civitas Galleries, Ancient Imports, John Anthony, Ken Dorney, CNG and Agora, and a few from FORVM, and 2 dealers in England whom are also Vcoins contributors. I've also bought a few coins privately from other forum members, and those coins were mostly acquired by them from CNG or Agora Auctions or vcoins. In other words, I don't buy from questionable people on Ebay who found a coin in their "Uncle John's attic."

I guess that conservatism of mine, which leads me to buy from a small trustworthy group, has mostly shielded me from questionable coins...even if it has meant paying a little more at times or having to pass up on coins I want because I dont trust the source. But I think those small downsides/ inconveniences are worth it. Yes, I've still had 2 fakes. But two fakes from 175 coins is not a bad rate. Certainly beats the rate of being burned some of you who actively buy on Ebay seem to have. I guarantee you that if I had been actively buying on Ebay I would have documented at least 7 or 8 more fakes between the coins I bought. Some of the Ebay fakes are passable in the bad photos people post there, and you can't tell until you actually have the coin in hand and examine it closely that you've been had.