Featured Medieval - The Grosso and the Fourth Crusade

serafino · Nov 19, 2016

Excellent read. I wonder how they came up with the name "grosso" for these coins. Grosso in Italian means large/big and these coin are not very big.

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FitzNigel · Nov 19, 2016

serafino said: ↑

Excellent read. I wonder how they came up with the name "grosso" for these coins. Grosso in Italian means large/big and these coin are not very big.
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Compared to the debased deniers of the time (which I believe were then being called piccoli in contrast to grossi) they were larger. The piccoli had only 0.1 grams of silver, whereas the grossi had 2.2 grams. I wish I had an example to show, but I'm afraid I haven't come across one yet...

serafino · Nov 20, 2016

FitzNigel said: ↑

Compared to the debased deniers of the time (which I believe were then being called piccoli in contrast to grossi) they were larger. The piccoli had only 0.1 grams of silver, whereas the grossi had 2.2 grams. I wish I had an example to show, but I'm afraid I haven't come across one yet...
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That explains it. Piccoli in Italian means little ones. Those coins must be paper thin.

kevin McGonigal · Jan 2, 2017

Venice was a Byzantine outpost until well into the Middle Ages. it is not surprising that the Byzantine coinage would be imitated by the Venetians and one can readily see the similarity of Byzantine gold and silver of the Crusading era to those of Venice. The coins are so similar that on two different occasions coin dealers tried to sell me these Grossos as Byzantine coins and one of them was not too happy when I pointed out the subtle differences as the difference in value is considerable.

Evgmgospel · Feb 18, 2017

FitzNigel said: ↑

I'm quite excited by my newest coin, not only for the very interesting design (let's face it, most medieval coin designs are rather boring), but because of the history surrounding it.

When Pope Innocent III ascended to the Papal throne in 1198, Europe had achieved an uneasy and temporary truce with Saladin and the Muslim defenders of the Third Crusade. The great kings and princes of Europe became too enmeshed in their own quarrels to organize another crusade like the previous one attended by the kings of England, France, and the Holy Roman Emperor. Yet, a relatively small group of knights would eventually be gathered. Their goal was the Holy Land to re-establish the Crusader states, but without the patronage of the Kings of Europe, they were sorely lacking funds. Despite this, the Crusaders would agree to meet in Venice, and from there hire the boats necessary to sail to the Holy Land. Venice then, was prepared to receive a large amount of money which would be distributed to their shipwrights and other craftsmen for the creation of the Vessels.

View attachment 547415
Pope Innocent III

The amount the Crusaders agreed to pay was 85,000 marks of silver. The mark had become a unit of account, being 2/3 of a pound of silver, and was quite frequently used in international trade in ingot form. The Crusading army, lacking the financial backing of a king, failed to raise this money, and even borrowed some money from Venice to pay Venice. For Venice's part, they had been promised the sum of 85,000 marks, and had already used that sum to start making the ships for the Crusading army.

The Doge of Venice at this time was Enrico Dandalo. Enrico realized that the silver ingots so regularly used in international commerce would need to be coined to pay the shipwrights and others for their labor and for provisions (the ingots might be an easy way to pay one person, but inconvenient when paying many). However, there was a problem with the Venetian Denier: it had become debased, and much smaller is size than it originated (the denier of Charlemagne was 1.7 grams in weight and became the standard for Europe, but in the ensuing centuries many deniers would become smaller and debased: the Venetian denier in the 1170s was 0.1 grams). Should the 85,000 marks be minted into Deniers, this would equate to 230 million deniers, and an overwhelming amount of labor from the moneyers. The simple solution was to mint a new, larger, non-debased coin: a "great" coin, called a 'grosso.'

View attachment 547416
Enrico Dandalo Grosso. Asta Numismatica Ranieri N. 4, lot 1238

I wish I could say this was my coin. I did search for an Enrico Dandalo Grosso, but the only one I could find for sale had a starting bid price of €1,500; already well beyond my budget. My coin was minted soon after, however, by Enrico's successor Pietro Ziani. Both Ziani and Dandalo would play a role in what came next.

To give the Readers Digest version, since the Crusading Army couldn't pay Venice for the ships, and Venice had sunk large amounts of their own money into the venture, Enrico Dandalo concocted a plan to attack the rival trading city of Zara and subjugate it for payment. Dandalo, aged and blind, took the cross and led the attack on Zara. Innocent III was shocked by the attack on fellow Catholics, and excommunicated the Venetian leaders (whom he viewed as responsible for the diversion).

View attachment 547417
The course of the Fourth Crusade

Not long before these events, the Byzantine emperor Isaac II was overthrown, and his son and heir, Alexios IV, was imprisoned. Alexios would be smuggled out of his imprisonment, and upon hearing of the Crusader's financial predicament, he promised the Crusaders support, wealth, and use of the Byzantine navy, in exchange for returning Byzantium to him and his dynasty. This would prove to be too tempting a promise for the floundering crusade to ignore. In 1203, the Crusaders would besiege the city of Constantinople. Alexios would be installed as emperor, but naturally was not very popular with the citizens of Constantinople. After a series of political missteps, Alexios would be overthrown, and a new emperor crowned. The Crusading army demanded the new emperor keep Alexios' vow of support. When he did not, the crusaders attack during and sacks Constantinople in 1204. With this attack, the Crusaders not only gained enough money to pay Venice, they gained an empire.

View attachment 547418
Italian States, Venice
Pietro Zani, r. 1205-1229
AR Grosso, 19.79 mm, 1.9 grams
Obv.: [·+·]P·ZIANI· ·S·M.VENETI outside (Z retrograde), D/U/X down banner held between doge and St. Mark facing. I suspect the banner is a papal banner based on the devise, but I have no confirmation of that.
Rev.: [I¯C] X¯C accross field, Christ enthroned facing

Enrico Dandalo would die in Constantinople in 1205. He would be succeeded as Doge by Pietro Ziani, under whose authority my coin would be minted. Ziani had apparently joined the crusade, but it would be he who would be responsible for bringing back many of the riches of Constantinople, and placing them in Venice. To this day, one can see the golden horses which were once in front of the imperial palace placed on top of the the Duomo de San Marco in Venice (although the ones outside are a reproduction, the originals are just inside the Duomo to protect them from the elements). Ziani also contemplated moving the capital of Venice to Constantinople, but was prevented by the Venetian council.

View attachment 547421
The reproduction horses outside the Duomo de San Marco. The real ones from the Byzantine Imperial Palace are just to the left inside the church. Photographs inside were not allowed when I took this photo in April of 2009

I suppose the point of the tale is that finances and economics are often the crux of history. The split between the Eastern and Western churches may have been official since the Schism of 1054, but the Catholic Crusaders attack on the Orthodox Byzantines would ensure the continued separation of the church, never mind the first major step towards the eventual fall of "Rome." Because of the need to pay individuals, Venice created a new coin, and this too would spread to the rest of Europe, where Grossos (or 'Groats' as the English would call them) would become the new standard for silver coins, on the eve of Europe shifting to a gold standard.
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FitzNigel said: ↑

Thanks Christian! I always feel honored when a post gets featured. I just love the coins and love to tell the stories behind them!
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Evgmgospel · Feb 28, 2017

I have one of the Medival Grosso coins not sure the exact year as it is undated as far as I know but have it listed on ebay.

FitzNigel · Feb 28, 2017

Welcome Evg! - I believe what you have there was minted under Doge Andrea Contarini (you'll see on the obverse ANDR' 9TARENO - I'm attempting to use'9' to stand for an abbreviation that means 'con'), which dates from 1368-1382.

And it might be wise not to mention what you have on e-bay in the hon-selling forum, as that might upset the moderators.

FitzNigel · Dec 1, 2018

Apologies for reviving an old thread, but I have a relevant update: I managed to snag a coin of Enrico Dandolo!

Italy - Venice
Enrico Dandolo, r. 1192-1205
AR Denaro, 13.66 mm x 0.4 grams
Obv.: +S MARCVS around small cross
Rev.: +ENRIC DVX around small cross
Ref.: De Wit 3625 (Biaggi 2762)

This is the ‘piccolo’ denaro which the Grosso was supplementing. I still don’t have an Enrico Grosso (and probably never will), but compare the weight of this to the Grosso:

Italy - Venice
Pietro Zani, r. 1205-1229
AR Grosso, 19.79 mm, 1.9 grams
Obv.: [·+·]P·ZIANI· ·S·M.VENETI outside (Z retrograde), D/U/X down banner held between doge and St. Mark facing
Rev.: [I¯C] X¯C across field, Christ enthroned facing
Ref.: Similar to De Witt 3626

And here’s a photo for size comparison:

Loong Siew · Dec 1, 2018

@FitzNigel .. beautiful snag.. lovely pieces there

serafino · Dec 1, 2018

Just so everybody knows, "Piccolo" in Italian means little and "Grosso" means big.

panzerman · Dec 1, 2018

Nice addition FitzNigel! Medieval coins rock

Orfew · Dec 1, 2018

Congrats @FitzNigel I have been looking one of him for a while. There is a lot of competition for them when they come to market.

TheRed · Dec 1, 2018

Congrats @FitzNigel on such a great coin from a very controversial figure. The 4th crusade it's such a tragedy and in my opinion as it was a blow the Byzantine Empire could never fully recover from.

Orfew · Dec 1, 2018

Thanks to @FitzNigel giving me a heads up I think I have found my own piccolo of Enrico Dandolo.

The reverse definitely reads "SMARCVS" . I know that this legend is on the coins of Enrico Dandolo. Does anyone know if this legend is used for others as well?

Piccolo schüsselförmig 1192-1205? Italien Venedig Enrico Dandolo,
Grade: Randfehler, VF-

Catalog: vgl. Meyer 37

Material: Silver

Weight: 0.20 g

Diameter: 12.00 mm

Umschrift unleserlich.

FitzNigel · Dec 1, 2018

I think most of the piccolos of Venice do.

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Featured Medieval - The Grosso and the Fourth Crusade

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Featured Medieval - The Grosso and the Fourth Crusade

serafino Well-Known Member

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Orfew Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus

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