Learning to Grade and spot cleaned coins

Hey hey and happy friday all. I did some searching here but couldn't come up with what I'm looking for, probably my searching ninja skills are rusty.

Anyway - I'm looking to be better at identifying a cleaned coin, grading, and so on. I wondered if anyone has some suggestions on good sources of information to learn and/or practice.

I'm familiar with PCGS's site which is great if you have a coin in hand and want to compare it to find the grade. I'd like more than that, I'd like to have the knowledge to pick a coin up and have a reasonably good guess at the grade and if it's been harshly cleaned, etc.

That being said - I don't really feel the need to be good enough to decipher an MS65 from a MS66. Frankly I'd be happy with just landing in the proper "letter grade" AG, G, F, VF, XF, and so on.

Online sources I can read are great, books are great as well especially if they can be easily had used at a good price.

Hit me with suggestions!

 

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Photos aren't going to be your friend in this situation. Looking at coins in holders are going to be the way to go.

 

Couple of things... First off, the more coins you handle, the better your skills will become. Honestly, I been handling coins for fifty years and I couldn't distinguish an MS66 from an MS65. I don't know that is as important as judging wear, and yes a coin collector should be able to tell a G from a VF generally speaking. Honestly, I learned all my grading basics from the Redbook way before we had internet tools.

Cleaned coins... That's a loaded subject but I'll just say this. Learn what luster is. Luster is a result of the flow lines of the metal when it is struck in a die. Take a brand new quarter out in the sun and turn it around in the sunlight. You will see how the light reflects from the flow lines. An improperly cleaned coin is void of luster or flow lines. We have a member here @physics-fan3.14 who wrote a book that details this very subject called The Art and Science of grading coins. Chock full of valid info for the collector that really wants to know how to grade.

Before I write an epiphany, I'll offer one more bit of useful info I got here on CoinTalk. I pick up a coin and am immediately submersed in the beauty of the coin which robs me of the ability to be subjective. I don't study the coin before I am in awe of the coin... It was suggested to me to view a coin upside down. As odd as that sounds, it does give pause to the "WOW" factor and gives me the time to study the coin before I am head over heels into it.

Anyway, hope some of this is useful. Learning how to spot luster is of absolute importance. Spend some time learning that first and foremost.

 

Ya I wasn't necessarily looking to study photos, I was hoping to read up more on things to look for, the best way to determine a grade. Just a general education on grading and identification I suppose. Though I do know the basics.

All great info and helpful, thank you - I am familiar with mint luster or cartwheeling as some call it I believe? At some point that will disappear whether cleaned or not right? Just from circulation wear? I'll check out that book as well and also I like the tidbit about looking at it upside down because like you I tend to judge the coin immediatly. oooh shiny. lol

 

I don't know how large your access to actual coins is.
I will say, though, it is totally free to go to sites like Heritage Auctions or Great Collections auctions. They have thousands of photos of coins. Both in current auctions and in their archive sections. it is completely free to browse their sites and closely examine the coins in "Details" holder. james

 

Spot on, Randy.

The absolute best way to learn what a cleaned, counterfeit, or otherwise problem coin looks like is to learn what a good coin should look like first.

And thanks for the shout-out

 

Here is PCGS lingo. There are many definitions here.
https://www.pcgs.com/lingo/all
And a you tube video that might help.

 

Cleaned coins are often easy to detect, but the thing that trips up even some of the most experienced collectors and dealers are the recolored coins. A coin that has been recolored was at one point a cleaned coin, then by using specific chemicals/heat/light they can darken a coin to make it look natural. Usually this is poorly done and often easily spotted, but a few are expertly done and sometimes even get past TPGs. The best way to keep yourself from getting ripped off is to expose yourself to more coins. Try to get the overall look and feel of a natural original piece, once this is done the cleaned and recolored pieces will be blatantly obvious.

 

Help me out with Early Die State compared to Late Die State.

Luster apparently is tied to die wear.

To review: As a coin is struck the metal is pushed from the fields up into the devices. That is, the high points of the dies strike the planchet first, forcing the metal to move toward the voids in the die. This creates flow lines in the die as this occurs repeatedly. These flow lines, in turn, become part of the pattern stamped into the coin, so later die states have more, deeper flow lines than early die states.

Now, I think I am out of tune with the market. Luster's OK, I guess, but I really want to see all the details on the coin as designed. I gravitate towards sharply struck coins from fresh dies.

However, I suspect these just don't have the luster of coins struck with a worn die, with less crisp details, but more surface irregularities to scatter the light.

This is where I have a theory. One sign of cleaning is scratches running parallel across the surface, if a rough cloth or a brush was used. This certainly would be harshly cleaned and easy to detect in the right lighting. A sign of less harsh cleaning would be the flattening of the fine structure of the surface due to pressure applied during cleaning.

This is where I think I'm getting punished.

This is the surface of a Standing Liberty that was called Cleaned. This picture shows the original fine structure from the die. There are some faint lines that run "under" the stars and stop at the wing. There is also a fine pebbling and a few irregular meandering streaks. Other lighting angles confirm that these are integrated into the fine structure and not scrapes or dings. Finally, what is missing are flow lines. For a late die state, you would expect to see radial furrows showing where the silver was pushed from the edge to the middle to fill out the eagle that dominates this side of the coin.


For comparison, here is a Mercury dime where the flow lines are just beginning to become apparent.


This dime actually has a satin finish and very little luster. (More photos.)

Lincoln cents are also an area where I tend to be skeptical about cleaning. I feel that early Lincolns (1910-1919) are quickly downgraded to Cleaned if their surfaces lack any cartwheel luster.

Here, for example, is a pristine matte proof. It is neither cleaned nor recolored. Yet, its luster is not cartwheel, because there are no radial flow lines on the surface to kick back the light that way. And it is not recolored, even though lesser coins with this coloring so frequently get Questionable Color. (See this link for more photos.)


From there, you go to business strikes that don't quite follow the expected model, either. (See more photos.)

I have seen coins like this called Cleaned, because the cartwheel reflection is missing. That should imply that the surface was damaged through cleaning, yet is is almost the same exact pattern as the matte proof. The same fine pebbled surface is seen to the left of the head in both coins. It may, instead, just mean that the die is still new (as evidenced by the crisp detail) and has few flow lines.

The color of the 11-D may also be called Questionable. The alloy mixes of these early cents may have varied more than is generally acknowledged. I have seen 1909-S coins that are quite yellow compared to others, and there seem to be an abundance of coins with this pale red.

Of course, expect them to get Details Cleaned or Details Questionable Color. I suspect that's what the seller of this coin thought, since I bought it ungraded.

Just the threat of getting a Details grade is enough to put a damper on the market and keep coins from being graded.

 

There is something that I think I see in your photo. I do agree that the coin shows die lapping or a polishing. But, I don't think that that is why they called it cleaned. An early die stage coin with nearly zero radial die flow lines. Still has plenty of luster. It is the just that the structure of the luster is on a much smaller finer scale. I think that your coin may be suffering from a little bit of loss of luster.
That doesn't exactly mean that it was lightly hit with a cloth or put into a pocket, dusted too many times etc. It can be a simple over dip to remove a light tone etc. Dipping is a form of cleaning, except that it has been made acceptable, too a point. A coin that has been dipped too many times takes away some of the luster every time it is done.

It's photos like above make it hard to grade from photos, because quality of lens type of lighting and style/technique of photos can vary so much that details can be lost from a set of photos.

Each grade above a technical 65 is dependent on the reflectiveness and brilliance of that said luster. The more the fine small ridges the more brilliant it looks. And a technical higher grade. When you get into the 67+ and higher grades. IMO boils down to only fresh early stage dies. The luster gets even crazier.

 

very interesting! Tks!

 

Take two coins, same date and mint mark, in mint state condition, cartwheel luster and all. There are 4 Billion 2020-D cents, you ought to find two. Take one and rub the hell out of it with a soft washcloth, really shine it up good, then compare how the two reflect when you wiggle them a little under the light. Abuse it further, dip it in acetone and rub it, if you can't make it out from just rubbing. The most fatal thing in a cleaned coin is the removal of the cartwheel luster, and once it's gone, it's gone for life, and there's no restoring it. Do this a few times to get used to the look. It's flat. A corpse. Shiny, but without bounce. No life. And that's what luster is, it's the life.

 

I‘d buy a couple of common year Morgan dollars in VF, XF, AU, low MS, choice MS and gem MS - preferrably all certified by the same grading company. I‘d also get a book which explains how to grade US coins, e.g. the official ANA grading standards for US coins (7th edition). Now you can look at the coins in hand and see if the descriptions in the book are matching. Note that an AU58 is usually a much nicer coin than most low MS examples.

Cleaning? Search online for pictures of certified Morgan dollars which are either cleaned, harshly cleaned or have other issues. You should notice a lack of luster, hairlines, discoloration, dull surfaces or similar problems. In the beginning it may be hard, but after a while it becomes obvious…

 

Coins in holders won’t fix it 100% either. When I have access to my photo files, I’ll show you why.

If you see hairlines running parallel in the same direction, often with the aid of a glass, you are seeing evidence of cleaning.

 

Most definitely, I haven't ever bought a coin from the internet, all my purchases are in hand with a loop. Detecting a cleaning on a straight graded coin is a whole other ballgame, and one that you learn from looking at a lot of coins.

 

I am trying to learn and have gotten better at this. But seriously, it's like trying to read greens at Augusta National for slope and speed sometimes. Many times you can tell from a photo what is garbage fodder and sometimes you can't. I got a coin this week that is extremely nice but the color is off (Morgan), looks like tin instead of silver. It weighed out perfectly on the scales. I'll be sending it with a lot of others to be graded in the next few weeks, I'll be interested to see what it grades out at.

 

Old silver can take on many colors and still be okay. Dipping silver and then having it retone over time can result in many colors. The problems start when one uses physical means to scrape or rub the surfaces. It’s possible to dip a coin too many times or for too long, but the physical part is usually the source of most problems.

The “tin look” can be a problem. The Chinese have found ways to make their “circulated” counterfeits look like old toned dollars. Virtually none of them contain any silver.

 

I would be cautious unless money isn't an issue. Just figure a good way to take clear photos and post them here.
Grading is an expensive game lately, and will bury you in fees that you may never recover from.

 

Or die polishing. But if you look carefully under strong magnification the polish lines are raised on the surface of the coin. And the cleaning lines are little recessed grooves where metal has been moved or removed

 

The very best education is to go to a coin show or shop. Especially when it’s a bit slow. Find a knowledgeable helpful dealer. There are plenty. And compare cleaned to uncleaned details graded coins. Especially look to see why and what the type of cleaning is. Early silver shouldn’t be blast white. Especially if circulated. Sometimes the hairlines of an ancient cleaning can retone to a basically natural looking state. Which can be difficult to detect. Sometimes the coin has an unnatural luster or gloss to it. Sometime the toning and color just look off. Especially with pull away toning but now I’m getting complicated. The next best step is look at ha or stacks or gC and compare photos. You may need to look at a few thousand to really start getting a feel. But you can often but not always tell a cleaned coin from quality professional photos