Minnesota Law Restricts Gold and Silver Sales

I'm a Minnesotan, and I resent the derogatory statements made in some of the previous posts about our Governor, Attorney General and our legislative process. Having participated in our democratic process in Minnesota for over 40 years, I can tell you that regulations affecting businesses here are generally enacted at the request of citizens to address harms they have experienced. Our legislative system encourages involvement by stakeholders and though I don't always agree with some of the laws passed, those regulating business practices are mostly supported by honest businesses who want an even playing field to protect their business and professional reputation. I personally witnessed an elderly widow being ripped of by a bullion buyer before this law was enacted, so there was, IMHO, justification for better regulation of this business.

Minnesota has one of the highest voter turnouts at elections, so our voters are engaged in our government. If every state had the voter involvement of Minnesota, our nation wouldn't be in the mess we are in.

For the benefit of future posts, here is a link to the actual law: https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=80G&format=pdf

I'm not an attorney so I won't comment on what I think are some of the far fetched interpretations of our law suggested in previous posts. But, for those who prefer to live in states without decent regulations to protect their citizens from unscrupulous businesses, you might be well advised to contact Minnesota registered bullion sellers for your purchases.

 

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I'm from MN as well, and you can resent my opinions all you wish, but there are other, non numismatic reasons aplenty for them.

Take that as you wish.

If some people chose to throw money away that is their own fault. My grandpa sent his stamp collection off for appraisal and the appraiser disappeared. Maybe we should all cry for a new Philately bill. That's really going to help right?

My question would be why you only witnessed such a thing transpire with said elderly woman without doing anything.

Lastly, if MN requires a certain company for anything it should be my right to see which official has their fingers in the pie, but they already protected themselves from such transparency.

 

Using emotion from a single personal experience is how the worst laws end up on the books.

But like mentioned there is no law against you speaking up and warning the widow if you actually did witness this. The law also would not have prevented this from happening nor is it even clear anything illegal took place without more details. If the dealer lied about their value that is fraud which is already illegal. If all the dealer said was I will pay you this or I will give you half of spot price the law does not dictate what percentage of value someone has to offer for items (nor should it) without lying you are dealing in a gray area at best that is generally on the legal side of the line.

Then there is the fact that registration wouldn't even change anything anyway. People being ripped off don't know they were ripped off. They were happy with the sale price which is why the accepted it in the first place. So now the system is banking on people that don't have a clue what happened making reports. Most people can see that the most likely motivation for this law was a new tax on businesses and taxes from out of state ones as well.

 

You can read the law and recent amendments that will go into effect next week at: https://mn.gov/commerce/licensees/bullion-coin/

I don't think anyone will come to the conclusion that the requirement to pay an initial and annual registration fee of $25.00 for a bullion dealer or $10 for a representative of a dealer would constitute a tax. I doubt if the revenue from this would even cover administrative costs. But this law does help clean up this business, which was plagued with crooks here, and improves the reputation of legitimate dealers.

 

Feel-good politics. After it's been implemented for a year, go look at the real statistics of where it did good (if it in fact - saves anyone) - and compare it to all of the lost commerce and the cost to implement it.

Crooks don't obey laws, and there were already fraud laws on the books that could be used to successfully prosecute criminals.

Enjoy your witch hunt.

 

Having to pay a fee is the exact definition of a tax. Registration fees of all types are really just taxes.

It would be interesting to see someone challenge the dealers that ship their provision on the grounds that Minnesota doesn't have the legal authority to impose taxes on residents of other states with no physical presence there.

 

My other post here was deleted so I appoligise if I stepped out of line. Politics are silly and I know offensive to most. Despite this law there are still a ton of dealers who ship to mn. Its still frustrating when nice items are out there that we can't get.

 

How naive of you. Any money that a government takes, for whatever reason, from its citizens is a tax.

 

Too bad. You like the law, you live with the consequences and you don't complain.

 

The registration fee is negligible. The issue of concern to any small shop owner I've asked was the $5k bar that necessitated a bond, not just any bond but a very specific bonding company with state approval that cost over $2000. Out of your $5k which is not your profit.

Most of the $5k would have been recouping initial cost which you were taxed on when you bought it in the first place. THIS has resulted in the strangulation of long time, respectable small businesses.

 

Sorry, I somewhat messed up a previous post, which is listed as an entire quote, so I won't quote two of the above comments, but rather respond to them. First, the law was amended effective July 1, 2016. "The threshold for registration has been raised from $5,000 to $25,000 of bullion product transactions (both sales and purchases). As such, the minimum amount for the surety bond requirement has been raised to $25,000." (Click the link in my previous post for the complete text.)

Secondly, we the people, through our elected officials establish laws and services to be provided by our local, state and federal government. Those programs cost money. In some cases, especially in local and state governmental programs, the businesses who are regulated pay for the program so the general public doesn't have to. So, for example, in Minnesota, a business that manufactures a product and generates some hazardous waste in the process is required to be licensed and pay a license fee to support the state's regulatory program to make sure that the hazardous waste is properly managed and not just dumped in the ground behind the factory or down a sewer. I suppose some people think of that as a tax, but here in Minnesota we've decided that the general public shouldn't subsidize certain businesses by having to pay general taxes to make sure that business operates in accordance with the laws we adopt. So, some businesses are required to obtain licenses or register with the State Department Of Commerce, like bullion dealers to do business here. The result is that the people who, for example, buy bullion from a dealer in Minnesota, are helping pay for a program to ensure that the dealer is legitimate because the dealer passes on his costs to his customers. I think that is an equitable approach, and apparently the majority of Minnesotans do as well.

Thanks to Minnesotan's concerns about the environment and public safety, our state is one of the healthiest and safest places to live. I've lived in several other states, and a third world country not to be mentioned, and am glad to be back in Minnesota. Though as a coin collector, the range of temperatures and humidity here does pose a challenge for coin storage.

 

This is a very naive view. Any cost incurred by business is passed onto the consumer. You may not directly pay for those programs but I can assure you you are paying for them as the businesses costs are built into their sale prices.

Crime has been dropping everywhere in the USA for the last 30 years. You guys give your laws far to much credit for statistics that are nothing more than a general trend seen across the country

 

Well, yes. But only customers pay for the cost, not the general public through increased property taxes or income taxes. That is a more equitable way to cover necessary costs. I don't buy bullion so I don't pay. But for those who do, I would think the assurance of buying from a state registered business with a bond would provide some assurance that the transaction was fair. Somewhat like the assurance of purchasing a certified coin from a legitimate dealer rather than a raw coin at a flea market.

When I said Minnesota was one of the healthiest and safest states to live I wasn't limiting it to crime.

 

Yes and no. In this case it is mostly true since dealers aren't major employers. If this expands to major industry that is a large employer everyone will be paying for it though through the cost of goods and through income taxes to support welfare when people are laid off from a higher cost of business.

Being registered with the state has absolutely nothing to do with their buy and sell prices it just means they wrote the state a check. TPGs actually grade what is in front of their face which is why that actually is some form of assurance, saying I paid my fee is no assurance whatsoever. They can still set their own prices as long as they aren't doing it in a fraudulent way which was already illegal.

 

Again, look at the cost of legislation and enactment of this new feel-good law. You will find it cost the taxpayers quite dearly - and the crushing blow will be the future business it scares off.

There are thousands of coins for sale on Ebay alone that have an exclusion clause for Minnesota.

This means that local coin shops know they have the edge, and Minnesotans have been restricted from the open market by their own doing.

I understand that in this day and age, everyone things wrong is right - and it probably is...

 

I haven't seen any eBay sellers with an exclusion clause for Minnesota. To even be impacted by this law they would have to sell $25,000 worth of a precious metal such as bullion, not just any collectible coin. And, I find it difficult to see how such a dealer would even be discovered unless a cheated customer turned them in. If out of their own ignorance of the Minnesota law, or because they read some post on some forum written by someone who also didn't understand this law they decide not to sell in Minnesota it is not the fault of Minnesotans wanting to clean up this business. Not wanting to get into political ideologies, which probably won't be changed by anything posted in a coin forum, I'll just suggest again that it is always best to go to a reliable source for information.

 

Any coin containing 1% or more PM is considered bullion by the state. If you have a key date coin with a numismatic value of $5k, it counts as if you have sold $5k in bullion as it is written.
You must have missed the thread I made about the amendment, but regardless of the late changes the truth is that small shop owners were choked out during the few years of a $5k threshold. That only changed last week.

And yes, the enaction of the law was the fault of Minnesotans who cried after they were taken. Not long ago in my town an elderly woman wired her savings to a Nigerian prince. I wonder what ol' Swanson will dream up to 'protect' us from email scams next.

 

Then you haven't looked. There's thousands.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1932-10-Ind...897137?hash=item33ba000b31:g:738AAOSwjXRXbEDS

Due to recently enacted Minnesota legislation
we can no longer ship to MINNESOTA addresses.
We apologize for any inconvenience.

 

Bret_in_Sacto, thanks for the link on eBay. I tried searching eBay but didn't find any sellers with this language. So, I acknowledge, some dealers don't want to pay for a registration fee or a bond in Minnesota. That just means those dealers registered in Minnesota should get more business from Minnesotans.

This whole topic, however, is one of the conundrums with our form of government where states have their individual powers to enact laws unique from neighboring states. The alternative would be either less citizen protection - a buyer beware - system like third world countries - or a stronger federal government. Not a discussion uniquely relevant to this forum.

In response to Silentnviolent - I've met our State Attorney General and have worked with attorney generals and their staff during my career and I'm darn glad she is as concerned about the rights and welfare of our citizens as she is and not just pandering to corporate interests.

From a practical point, having been involved with regulating certain business practices as part of my career, I would agree with other posters in this forum, that some regulations, especially those that involve interstate or international transactions are virtually impossible to enforce and may actually raise the cost of doing business for those that comply sufficiently to drive more Internet sales. I think that, and the desire to avoid sales tax, is why Amazon and eBay are doing so well. Social media and the ease of sharing information is helpful in exposing bad actors, (i.e. feedback in eBay and reviews in Amazon) however, there is no follow-up to prevent bad actors from changing their names and continuing their dishonest practices. I guess the result is that people who don't want to take a risk will go to registered dealers, and those who want to save a buck will take a risk.