Dipping MS and Proof coins

It's tough to follow what you say insider. In one post you argue on one side of the fence and in the next you do a 180 and contradict what you said before. Many new members to the hobby are not going to understand what is truth and what is BS.

Most consider the term "dip" to mean an acid based product. They can be very helpful on the right coin if used properly. Knowing if a coin can be helped is where many get in trouble. Acid based dips can kill the mint luster in only a few seconds.

It's too late for me but someone should explain flow lines and luster.

 

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That is precisely why I only use 50% ammonia and 50% distilled water for dip.

It kills the bacteria, air pollutants, and whatever else caused it to haze over in the beginning, without using any acids.

chascat

 

What the heck are you talking about. Don't you know what they are and what causes them and how they can be changed? Frankly, I don't have the time. Go read about them.

I'm beginning to lose confidence in you. What part of dipping a coin into a chemical has you confused? Water is a chemical. Ammonia is a chemical. Chemicals can be acid or bases. We use all kinds of "dips" in MY LAB. When I post comments, I try to cover all the bases so some expert does not come along and say I'm misleading the uninformed and the idiots who cannot read. [the rest of this has been deleted but I enjoyed ragging on you ]

Why don't you put a cheap BU silver coin into a dip for a minute and quit spouting off nonsense.

And I want you to post one of my BS contradictions. Back up your post.

Finally I'm cooled down. Feel free to ask me to explain anything I have posted that you disagree with ot don't understand.

 

What's going on here? I've just been informed that "dips" are acids!

 

Now let me give you a little friendly advice from a seventy plus old fart who has been over, under, and all around the coins/tokens/medals of most countries, all types, and ages probably from before you were born. Wise men don't give advice (I'm not wise),and fools don't follow it but here goes:

I have found that over 75% of the people who buy/sell/trade/collect coins (most are wonderful people) are STUPID, IGNORANT, MISGUIDED, UNINFORMED, and FOOLISH when it comes to coins. They throw their money away on junk (it's their money and their hobby so that is unimportant) and rely on myths and good sounding opinions from their uninformed peers. They cannot grade, they cannot detect a deceptive counterfeit, they cannot tell you how coins are made or any of the commonly seen characteristics on coins. They cannot tell originality or differentiate PMD from mint imperfections. They don't understand strike vs wear patterns. They have absolutely no professional training AT ALL. Are you beginning to get the picture? This is what we deal with o a daily basis where I work.
The other 25% are true collectors; numismatists; professionals; and teachers who keep us all on the straight and narrow path to knowledge. IMO many members on CT are 25% 'ers. In a very short time the 25% recognize each other and TRY to help the less informed. I feel like I'm wasting much of my life here trying to pass on things I have learned/can demonstrate/and can back up. Ever notice that when I ask a question on CT or ask a poster to back up their opinion I get no answer 97% of the time. There is a reason for this: See the capitalized words above. In a forum such as this, the 30% often appear to be know-it-alls. That's because this place is free and open to everyone (the 75% who join here to learn). I know what I know and I know what I am ignorant on. Unfortunately, many here don't have a clue about the state of their lack of knowledge!

My advice to you: Read it all, ask questions, and THEN GO OUT AND VERIFY the comments for yourself. It is not hard in the information age. Until you can back up your opinion with facts and PERSONAL EXPERIMENTATION it's best to read and not type/regurgitate the nonsense all around us here.

 

My post was very clear and to the point. I figured you would understand it without getting upset and insulting. Maybe you would like to explain what flow lines are and the effect that an acid based dip will have on them?

 

Can anyone recommend the best book on dipping? I would like to learn a few new tricks.

 

I did understand. You were very clear and accused me of contradicting (?)myself. I'm STILL waiting for you to post some of my contradictions rather than "moving on." Which of my posts confused you?

As to moving on...No thanks. Why don't you just look up a thread here on flow lines and dip. I don't dare look as it would probably take a week of typing to correct ALL the misinformation (?) that might be there!

BTW, decades ago professional numismatists examined three coins using an SEM to view their flow lines when dipped. Perhaps those photos are on file with some organization.

 

Insider
I don't need to look it up to understand it. I thought it might be helpful to others. The topic falls right in line with this thread.

 

Thanks Doug...

I'll comment on your post shortly. But I have one for you first.

This past weekend at a grading seminar, one of the teaching coins was a typical Fine barber dime. The coin had the normal gray color found on naturally circulated worn coins and some darker surfaces highlighting the relief. The "teaching coin" had been dipped half way (just as your example). The coin was ugly - just as your example. The top half was natural and the bottom was dull etched bright gray. Comment from the teacher; "This is why it's often best not to dip circulated coins.

Now to your post:



Dipping it in what exactly ? And yeah, I'm asking for the name of the commercial dip you use to do this. The "acid" dip I use is e*Z*est coin cleaner (Aervoe Industries). I formerly used Jewel Luster. Don't know if this is made any more.

The folks who have been around here a while have seen this picture many times. Nice photo and good for teaching. I'll need to make one. And it's obviously not a silver coin - obviously, and no the coin didn't even have any luster (?) as it was well circulated (?) Sorry to disagree with you on this:
IMO, the top half of the cent is a beautiful AU-55+ to AU-58 lustrous brown Lincoln cent. You should have been ridiculed in the class if you graded the top half of that coin any lower than AU (and IMO you deserved the ridicule as we aren't in the 1960's anymore ) There is hardly any wear on the coin. long before I ever got it. And this little experiment didn't even have anything to do trying to remove toning, it was about something else entirely, namely the lines (?) on the coin. What lines? Where is this going?

But, this does serve to illustrate a point. ? The lines? This coin was dipped by me in Tarn-X Folks, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER use Tarn-X on a coin , a commercial coin dip (actually, a commercial SILVER dip only suitable for knives & forks! , (no dilution) for less than 1 second. The results speak for themselves You got that right! Folks, I cannot write what I really want to say here . Hopefully, Doug is just trying to make his point; however NEVER, NEVER, NEVER dip a copper coin in an acid dip! NEVER, NEVER - OMG! Oh boy, am I holding back and can be duplicated by anybody who cares to go to the store buy some Tarn-X and dip a well toned coin in it and remove as fast as they possibly can.




Now if it can do THAT in less than 1 second, what do you suppose it would do to luster on BU coin? I don't use the stuff. I don't know any properly educated/trained numismatist who would even think of using Tarn-X on anything except silverware either!
And anybody who wants can buy some Tarn-X Don't waste your money unless you have silverware to polish. take a BU silver coin, and dip half of it like I did this penny. But do it for say 3 seconds, and then post a picture. As long as the coin is BU with no "skin" that will come off and change the color, you will not see any difference in a photo. And we'll see for ourselves I already know what it does and have used acid dip on every type of metal.

Now, for a dirty little secret: On occasion a copper coin is COMPLETELY STRIPPED to "pink" and then toned back to natural brown. With a little research, anyone can read how this is done/was done in the past. My lips are sealed . exactly what it does.



Like I said before, the specific dip you use, and whether you dilute it or not, will yield vastly different results. Very true.
GDJMSP, 9 minutes ago Report Best Answer
#169 Like + Quote

 

Sorry, no time. Asked and answered plenty of times by the 25% of posters here I have learned to respect. If you care to educate all of us (again?) about the relationships between die wear, radials, luster, metal flow and acid, I'll be happy to add to your comments as I did in my reply to Doug (Post#171)

 

After reading this forum start to finish this morning. I would have to say that_ _ _ # of post from Insider, has left me even more confused about the Proper " Conservation" of a Coin. I believe Cleaning is Cleaning.... I would rather have coins in my collection with original surfaces.Though we all have bought coins that have been altered in one way or form- Environment--- sitting on logs? That Saint
Gaudens is beautiful by the way. Foldered, uv rays etc. Even finger printed coins with oils on them. My opinion- even Coins that I consider unattractive, Another in this world would probably enjoy having in his collection. I say leave them alone. Find one that you like.

Insider you speak of prep and the appropriate time of dipping. would you please give us a few before and after picks, using (off the shelf) solutions, IE methods?
If I was to be inclined to buy a coin, that has been "dipped" I would like to know what to look for ( right or wrong) I would not like to buy something that will only get a details holder.

 

Sorry, I cannot. Most is proprietary information. However, if you PM me and give me some time I'll answer what I can.

Wait, your suggestion is a very good one regarding photos. Sooner or later I will do this. I PROMISE. Unfortunately, photos don't do the subject justice.

PS I just put a Proof Presidential dollar into some full strength acid dip. I've taken a before photo and shall time the destruction of its surface with photos. This will take some time. Besides, you can do this for yourself - I really have more important things to do. But I'm going to do it ...AGAIN . In the interest of education and correcting some myths, I'll go to a coin shop and get some proof nickels and BU silver coins to work on.

Nevertheless, don't trust any thing you'll see or what I say. Do you understand this? YOU MUST DO THE EXPERIMENTS YOURSELF. That's the only way to be sure of the results, opinions, and here!

 

Interesting. How do you grade a Lincoln cent with hardly any trace of wear, virtually full details, and great original color?

Also, no one would have a clue FROM THE PHOTO that the date side was abraded with an eraser. That's why many photos used here suck!

PS IMO, that coin will never look original again if left to tone naturally. Nevertheless, you have done an important experiment that is awesome IMO! I'll be watching you

 

I wish you wouldn't attempt to give credence to his words. He directly contradicts himself too often to be believable, and isn't sharp enough to lie believably.

Over the next year or so - I'm learning to code right now to create the Web pages - I will be starting to dump everything I know about coin conservation onto the Internet, free of charge, and we can put this BS to sleep forever. I've been dribbling bites out in this forum for the last few months.

 

I'm new to coin collecting and I'm having great fun with it. I've found 'coin talk' to be my most edifying resource. This is a particularly interesting thread. I have a friend who tells me that toothpaste and a soft bristled brush is a great way to clean coins without hurting them. It didn't used to be because it had fine abrasive material in it. Today's toothpaste has micro-beads in it which are tiny plastic beads, not abrasive enough to hurt a coin. I haven't tried it yet myself.

 

Don't, it will still scratch your coins.

 

I didnt trust what you were saying the last 50 or more of your posts.
I was trying to see if you could back anything you said.
Any one who dose experiments takes notes, and has examples of the right and wrong way of doing things.