Toned $2 1/2 Gold Indian! Put your shades on....

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by BigTee44, Sep 16, 2015.

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  1. BigTee44

    BigTee44 Well-Known Member

    So I had the honor of taking pictures of some of @jwitten gold coins and he asked me to share it here. It's amazing just how beautiful this coin is in hand and I'm just glad I was able to see it!

    Let us both know what you think!

    Toner1.jpg

    toner2.jpg

    toner3.jpg
     
    BigTee44, Sep 16, 2015
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  3. jwitten

    jwitten Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Sep 16, 2015
    jwitten, Sep 16, 2015
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  4. charlietig

    charlietig Well-Known Member

    I don't like the toning....
     
    charlietig, Sep 16, 2015
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  5. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    That's the most beautiful toned Gold coin I've ever seen. Gold tones so much differently than other metals. None of mine are toned but I keep looking. Now I've found it! :)
     
    Collecting Nut, Sep 16, 2015
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  6. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    Pretty coin.
     
    ldhair, Sep 16, 2015
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  7. kanga

    kanga 65 Year Collector

    I never thought gold could tone like that.
     
    kanga, Sep 16, 2015
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  8. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    They have 10% copper in them.
     
    ldhair, Sep 16, 2015
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  9. kanga

    kanga 65 Year Collector

    Good point.
    But storage must have been particularly bad OR the coins got caught in a flood.
     
    kanga, Sep 16, 2015
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  10. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    Gold is normally not subject to color change but with the right mix of other minerals, it can be changed. Like any other metal, gold is subject to color change or toning. It's just unusual as compared to other metals used in coins.
     
    Collecting Nut, Sep 16, 2015
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  11. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    I would say this differently. I do not believe gold tones, only the other metals in the alloy tone. Since alloy mixing can be imperfect, there can be vast differences in toning on gold coins.
     
    medoraman, Sep 16, 2015
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  12. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    When found in the rough, gold is mostly yellow, but specimens have been found in a copper red color, reddish, yellowing, pale green yellowish and yellow. Even gold in it's natural state can tone. It's a mineral. Gold is the most malleable of all metals. an ounce of gold can be beaten into 300 sq. ft. Gold leaf can be thin enough to become transparent. The transmitted light appears greenish blue, because gold strongly reflects yellow and red. Gold conducts heat and electricity. It also reflects infrared radiation and light. It's used for sun-visors in spacesuits. Gold is very dense. It's cubic meter mass is 19,300 kg. Lead is 11,340 kg and the densest element, osmium, is 22,588 kg.

    The symbol for Gold is Au, Latin for aurum, which is the Latin word for Gold. It's atomic number is 79. It's one of the least reactive chemical elements and is solid under standard conditions (temperature and pressure).

    Given this information, gold is not normally going to tone but it is possible, both in the raw and refined states.
     
    Collecting Nut, Sep 16, 2015
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  13. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Something to think about. Let's imagine that this is a cross section of the coin.

    _________________

    _________________

    Now imagine that when a coin is struck the metal flows thus creating luster. If greatly magnified that luster looks something like this.

    /\/\/\/\/\/\/\

    A series of peaks and valleys created by the flowing metal. So instead of a straight and flat line on top and bottom of the coin you have that uneven surface of peaks and valleys. But to the naked eye it appears to be straight and flat. But what it does in reality is increase the surface area of that coin immensely because you are measuring up and down each of those peaks and valleys, not straight across the top.

    Now, since toning only occurs on the very outer layer of the metal, and at the molecular level, only the very tip of those peaks, and the very top layer of the metal following the peaks and valleys up and own, is exposed to the air and only that tiny portion, the very surface layer, is even capable of toning for every other molecule of metal is below that surface and not exposed to the air.

    Got the picture in your mind ?

    OK, if only the impurities, the copper, silver, and other trace metals, in the alloy are capable of toning, try to imagine what the odds are of all those impurities being concentrated only at the very top layer of the metal. Go back to the first illustration, look at it, and try to imagine all of the impurities being concentrated at the very top and bottom lines of that illustration - and nowhere else throughout the thickness of the coin. For that is what it would take for a coin like that to tone like that. Remember, only 10% of the alloy is not pure gold.

    The toning on that coin covers almost the entire coin. And if only the impurities tone how else could there be that much toning on the coin unless all of those impurities were concentrated in the very top layer of the molecules of that metal ?

    Does anybody really think such a thing is possible ? Do you think it is probable ?

    If you say no, then the only possible conclusion is that gold tones.

    Now imagine the same thing happening with a coin that is .986 gold. Or imagine it happening with a coin that is .999 gold. I can show you pictures of both examples - toned.
     
    GDJMSP, Sep 16, 2015
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  14. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    Doug, I know you and I disagree about gold toning. Your position is that it does, my position is only the other metals tone, and other "toning" people see is in reality light surface depositions that gold color reflects through causing a toning effect. Ying and Yang.

    I agree with your description of the coin surface. One thing I would point out, though, would be that the act of striking will cause changes to the planchet and alloys. People forget how violent striking is to a coin. It literally melts the surface of the metal for a fraction of a second. Ancient Romans used this fact to make a planchet with low silver content look silvery because the silver would melt and coat the outer layer with a thin layer of molten silver when struck. Do we have any data on how gold/copper planchets react under striking pressure? Do we know for sure micro surface enrichment of copper does not happen under those circumstances? You are reacting to what you have seen, I am reacting to what I have seen. I have seen a lot of "toned" gold coins coming out of smokers houses, and none out of non-smokers houses where the coin was stored properly.
     
    medoraman, Sep 16, 2015
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  15. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Uhhhh, no it does not. The metal flows because of pressure exerted upon it, not heat produced by the act of it being struck.

    But your question of the metal changing due to the act of striking, yeah the metal changes because it flows as it is struck. But copper molecules are not drawn up through the alloy to be concentrated at the surface by the act of striking. Gold is just about the densest metal there is, so it is not possible for a less dense metal like copper to be drawn through it and brought to the surface by any action.
     
    GDJMSP, Sep 16, 2015
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  16. medoraman

    medoraman Supporter! Supporter

    But is it possible for any trace copper on the surface to flow over the surface of the coin in that moment, like the Roman silver pieces?
     
    medoraman, Sep 16, 2015
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  17. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Think about what you are asking. How could it be possible for the molecules of one metal to do something that the molecules of another metal, mixed together in the alloy with it, are not also doing ? We're talking about a solid here, not a liquid. And silver is also more dense than copper. So it is impossible for a less dense material to flow through it.

    The questions I asked in post #12 are simple, basic, common sense questions. And when answered there is only 1 possible conclusion - gold tones.
     
    GDJMSP, Sep 16, 2015
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  18. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    Thank you. I know it does. I've seen beautiful examples, a few on coins but mostly on raw specimens. I collect rocks, gems and minerals. Gold tones in any form.
     
    Collecting Nut, Sep 16, 2015
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  19. jwitten

    jwitten Well-Known Member

    All I know is..... pretty colors!!
    ngc submission 004.JPG ngc submission 006.JPG
     
    jwitten, Sep 16, 2015
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  20. Collecting Nut

    Collecting Nut Borderline Hoarder

    Pretty colors on a pretty coin! That's why I built my set of them. Mostly affordable for a coin set and attainable to complete. I love the $2.50 Indians! I only need the 1911-D weak but that's not part of the set. I have the strong D so it's complete. I would like to have this toned gold coin though! :)
     
    Collecting Nut, Sep 16, 2015
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  21. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    If gold tones, does platinum tone?
     
    Kentucky, Sep 17, 2015
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