What does PCGS mean by this ?

Seriously it's not that hard to put a number that corresponds to value on a coin regardless of the problem.

And whoever says problem coins can't be graded needs to show me that in the coin collectors rule book I forgot to read when signing up for this hobby.

Rules can change, just like the times.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Quiet fool you are about to create another doug vs everyone else 10 page thread by saying that

 

Coins are not supposed to be cleaned or altered in anyway.

As such, TPG's that guarantee their grades (with cash) will not assign a numerical grade.

In reality, while the coin may actually be a nice "hole filler", it technically has no market value due to the perceived cleaning and "Coin Grading" is ALL about the price that folks will pay for it in the open market.

Now, having said that, it does not mean that the TPG correctly assessed the coin. I have had coins returned in 92 slabs which, when cracked out and resubmitted, came back with an MS.

The TPG's are only offering a "professional opinion".
Generally speaking, upon resubmission, the graders that say nay, may not see the coin the second time as it could very well be some other graders which may not think the coin is cleaned.

So.............if you really want to get into the TPG game, get ready to ante up for those "opinions". But ALWAYS remember, they are only opinions. They are NOT Gospel.

I would also like to state that, nobody can tell ANYTHING from those particular photographs.

 

I'm a bit confused on this "Details" thing:

(1) I submit 2 coins, they look identical to the naked eye and pretty close under 5x. But one has been cleaned and they can tell it has been cleaned. So the 1st coin gets MS-62 and the other gets -- what ? MS-62 CLEANED ? Or does it get a lower grade because it WAS cleaned -- AU-58 or AU-55 or whatever ?

(2) I realize that coins are not supposed to be cleaned and the TPGs stand behind their ratings, so if they see a coin cleaned, why not just drop the grade enough to cover the cleaning demerits ?

 

There is no principled way to market grade them because the variation in price can be huge. That AU details might sell for less than VF money and might sell for melt.

 

I don't see a way to put a number on a coin that has been altered.
The services come up with a number based on several attributes.
Marks, Luster, Strike, Toning, Eye Appeal and Other Factors.

Cleaning can remove marks, luster, toning, eye appeal and even the details used to judge the strike. It's no longer possible to balance these factors and set a number.

 

Then how is 'market grading' a phenomenon?

All Market Grading is, is putting a number on a slab to represent what its value should be. We have had this discussion in several threads now, and it amounts to the same thing. Leniency is given to rare dates, key coins, and pedigreed material, in order to establish a value for that coin.

Now what is the leniency portion? That is letting normal unacceptable technical flaws pass due to the desirability of a particular coin. The coin STILL has problem, but somehow because it is rare, we give it a clean grade anyway? That is simply put, assigning a number to a problem coin due to its historical merits and ignoring its technical flaws to put a number grade on it to establish value.

Thats all putting a number grade on a problem coin will do. Is help establish a better set of parameters for pricing.

Let me ask you this, you say these 'problem' coins sell all over the place right? Well so do non-problem coins, all the time they sell for prices way below book value, right on book value, and many times over and up to way over book value, so how is that different than assigning my buy price to a problem coin? The process is still the same for me.

You see, all these situations are very, very similar, and weve drawn these arbitrary lines in the sand, like 'problem coins can never have a straight grade' but out the sides of our mouths we add on 'unless Newman owned it, its a 1804 dollar, or 1913 V Nickel, or insert some other significant coin'. How can you not see that its the same thing?

And like I said earlier, different problems will effect the grade differently. Hardly noticeable rim counting damage might cost the grade two points, whereas harsh cleaning might take 5.

And it can be evaluated on a coin by coin basis. The graders already net grade anyway, so they are used to it, but if they were smart they would just give the consumers what they want, and that is a number on a problem coin. All it is doing is helping the market, and the guys who set the standards with grades anyway, can easily help make a market for this AND it helps level the playing field.

We wont see any more 'market grading' like we do now, because every coin will be market graded.

It actually makes things simpler, because it clears the line on what may be a net graded coin, versus what are truly problem free coins. Right now we have these silently net graded coins roaming around in problem free slabs in an era where we think that NO problem coins should be like that.

 

They assign numerical grades ALL the time to rare coins, high profile coins, and are lenient on tough series that exhibit normal technical problems.

How are those 'problem' coins getting clean grades then?

 

Then how do they magically ignore those things on the rare coins?

 

Here is a refresher thread for any who think this matter doesnt exist.

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/does-it-grade-1864-s-10-liberty.256514/

Feel free to read all the replies from our resident experts and dealers who thought this was a detailed coin, but due to its 'rarity' it should grade. AND it DID grade, despite all of our more seasoned collectors/dealers saying it really shouldnt it, but will anyway (which they were right).

That ladies and gentlemen, is putting a number on a problem coin, and to top it all off, about 90% of the participants of that thread realized putting a number on a problem coin existed, so why is it an issue to do the same to common coins to help establish value?

 

Ehh, Im not scared.

 

(1)One gets an MS62 and the other doesn't get graded. Only certified as a genuine us coin.

(2)Because the top TPG's simply will not grade a coin which has been cleaned. And just so we're sure, a coin that is in a TPG Slab with a label which states "Genuine" is not a coin which has been graded. Just certified as genuine.
If the coin were not genuine, it would be returned in a flip with the appropriate determination.

 

Not always. I recall a fellow over on CU finding a 1794 Starred Large Cent and it was heavily corroded. PCGS identified it as Genuine and it sold for north of $9,000.
These coins are very rare and highly collectible yet, no leniency.

And for the record, "leniency" is not really given "IF" it is determined that the scratches are old enough to have occurred a very long time ago. (100 years or more). This is a well known fact within the grading circles.
In other words, a coin from the 1700's can get a viable grade with some scratching but a coin from the mid to late 1800's may not.

Folks should understand that "technical" grading is mostly applied to coins from the 1900's on and yes, it can be confusing. Maybe think along the lines of, if it's a PO1 and it still has a 5 figure value, then yes, some leniency can be applied but only to a certain point.

 

I NEVER said they all receive leniency, just that it happens, and it happens every single day.

Just look at the thread I linked. I had no part in that discussion, but it illustrates my point in black and white.

I dont know those graders in that room, but I do know several of the folks here, I buy from them, I respect their opinions, and almost all of them believed that coin in any other date/mm combo would wind up in a details slab, yet it didnt.

I didnt make any of that up, just observed it.

So where are my observations wrong?

I only have to prove that it happens once to make my case, the other side must say that it never happens for their credibility to stand

As for the part that I underlined and bolded. What is the standard then? Why is it split at some perceived date? Why cant all coins be graded by the same set of rules? What does it matter how old a scratch is, its still a scratch? Did it suddenly not become a problem feature?

 

Good grief, what is 'cleaning' anyway? It is unnatural 'wear' on a coin. Clean an MS62 and you lose some detail, and now it has AU58 details. Let the same coin circulate and it also will fall to AU58. The coin is the coin, grade it based on the details it retains. Why should a coin that attains AU58 by cleaning be any different than a coin that attains AU58 by regular wear? Sure, the visual appeal may be different, and that is fine in determining value to the buyer. I'm fine with including 'cleaned' or other such designations to signify additional parameters, but what the heck is wrong with at least assigning a grade based on the details visible on the coin? See the two cent piece in my avatar? It's a beautifully high detailed coin, with smooth unscratched surfaces, among the best I've seen in a non-proof two cent piece. PCGS "helpfully" graded it Genuine - Questionable Color - Uncirculated Details. Gee, thanks guys.