Best way to tell altered DMPL Morgans

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by RabidRick, Oct 1, 2014.

  1. RabidRick

    RabidRick Sardonic Devil's Advocate

    I'd assume the poishing of fields would be obvious.

    As far as spoofing the frosty look does this eat away at the devices?

    it's a chemical they use to do this, right?
     
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  3. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Best Answer
    That might be a bit difficult to do as most DMPL Morgans are going to be in slabs. That's not to say you can't find some raw, but it sure won't be easy.

    You might want to search out posts made by Todd - https://www.cointalk.com/members/blu62vette.17342/ He is a collector of DMPL Morgans and probably knows as much or more about them as any member of this forum. And he could no doubt answer many questions.

    As for how to identify the altered ones, unless you are pretty familiar with them, or unless the coin doctor does a lousy job, that too can be difficult. And it's not just done with Morgans. It is also done to other coins from the 19th century, both gold and silver, and it is done to other more modern Proofs as well. And with them it is even easier because all that is required is the adding of frost since the fields are already polished.

    Now part of the reason identifying alterations can be so difficult is because there are differences even among genuine examples. For example, and I am only using this as an illustration to show just how different even genuine mint products can be. These are all genuine mint products and the pictures were posted by a forum member, (apologies as I cannot remember who exactly).

    frost on Proofs 5.jpg


    As you can see the differences are plainly evident even over a short span of years. And they were caused by differences in manufacture.

    Now telling a genuine DMPL Morgan from an altered DMPL Morgan, or other 19th century coin, or even a more modern Proof, is going to be kind of like looking at those pictures, there are going to be differences between them, the frost is going to look different.

    Over the years the frost on genuine coins has been created by several different methods such as sandblasting, acid etching, and even the use of lasers in more recent years. And sometimes the mint would switch back and forth from one method to another. So there is often much to know before you can begin to accurately differentiate between genuine and altered. And that's just for the frost, with the polished fields there is even more.
     
  4. JPeace$

    JPeace$ Coinaholic

    Do you have a picture of an altered DPL Morgan? I have yet to see one, so I'm curious.
     
  5. RabidRick

    RabidRick Sardonic Devil's Advocate

    No, but there's a dealer I'm a bit suspect is altering them.

    I might get one if I can lowball it.

    I'd probably need a *good* DMPL to compare to though. One with frosty devies.

    Unless I see something obvious compared with what I got.

    I have one with very nice reflective fields, at least a 63/64 but Morgans aren't really my thing. I just think it would be need to start a colection of all DMPL's (and I don't think I would want them slabbed so they can go in a whitman classic or something).

    Oh, and I must have missed this:

    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/altered-dmpl-morgan.113057/

    I've returned damaged coind enough on eBay and they were very good to me about refunding the Calabria dolphin I never received from Germany after a month. So far, eBay has been pretty smooth aside from the fees. Don't know if I'll order from that guy again. It's tempting with the inventory but I'm not risking another escalation for a non-tracked shippent never received.

    If I can, I'll get a couple and compare them and take pictures under the microscope. I gree about the fields though and the ones I'm looking at don't look like bag marks.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2014
  6. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Best Answer
    That might be a bit difficult to do as most DMPL Morgans are going to be in slabs. That's not to say you can't find some raw, but it sure won't be easy.

    You might want to search out posts made by Todd - https://www.cointalk.com/members/blu62vette.17342/ He is a collector of DMPL Morgans and probably knows as much or more about them as any member of this forum. And he could no doubt answer many questions.

    As for how to identify the altered ones, unless you are pretty familiar with them, or unless the coin doctor does a lousy job, that too can be difficult. And it's not just done with Morgans. It is also done to other coins from the 19th century, both gold and silver, and it is done to other more modern Proofs as well. And with them it is even easier because all that is required is the adding of frost since the fields are already polished.

    Now part of the reason identifying alterations can be so difficult is because there are differences even among genuine examples. For example, and I am only using this as an illustration to show just how different even genuine mint products can be. These are all genuine mint products and the pictures were posted by a forum member, (apologies as I cannot remember who exactly).

    frost on Proofs 5.jpg


    As you can see the differences are plainly evident even over a short span of years. And they were caused by differences in manufacture.

    Now telling a genuine DMPL Morgan from an altered DMPL Morgan, or other 19th century coin, or even a more modern Proof, is going to be kind of like looking at those pictures, there are going to be differences between them, the frost is going to look different.

    Over the years the frost on genuine coins has been created by several different methods such as sandblasting, acid etching, and even the use of lasers in more recent years. And sometimes the mint would switch back and forth from one method to another. So there is often much to know before you can begin to accurately differentiate between genuine and altered. And that's just for the frost, with the polished fields there is even more.
     
  7. RabidRick

    RabidRick Sardonic Devil's Advocate

    Oh, wow. Sounds like a challenge but I don't mind doing the research and I bought a dissection microscope for home for this specific purpose.

    Then again, some dealers I just trust having purchased from them many times. I never really got into Morgans, I think because I'm a perfectionist and can't deal with the bagmarks. If it were a nice 65+ DMPL though, *that* i could get into. Maybe doesn't even have to be complete gem; there's just a certain aesthetic qualiry I like about them.

    I should really finish my archaic and 20c and 3c nickel piece sets though. I really tend to get all over the place and those I think I can finish though.

    Well, except the 76CC. I was so jealous when DLRC sold that one in 65 (or was it 66) with beautiful aqua green toning. I think it went for 125,000 or so.

    Maybe one if these days ;3
     
  8. Morgandude11

    Morgandude11 As long as it's Silver, I'm listening

    Most Morgan DMPLs are slabbed. The collectors that originally bought them wanted that designation, and got it, as TPGs can recognize an altered Morgan. Doug is correct--there have been many ways that Morgans have been altered to look DMPL and PL--simple shining and polishing with an abrasive polish and buffer is the simplest way--it may make it look more reflective, but the abrasion on the surface is unmistakeable. One can see the hairlines (unusually in a circular pattern) from buffing, as it destroys the metal on the surface of the coin. Sandblasting (as mentioned by Doug) is another familiar way--the tell-tale mark of this treatment is having a pitted surface. Acid etching is also quite common--since the acid removes the top layer of the surface of the coin, one ends up with a coin looking bright, shiny but lusterless (this is not a contradiction---the original mint luster is very characteristic, as opposed to a falsely shiny surface, which has a dull, lifeless quality to it).
     
  9. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    When I mentioned sandblasting, acid etching, and lasers - I was talking about the way the mint creates the frost effect on the dies. Not about how fakes are made.
     
  10. RabidRick

    RabidRick Sardonic Devil's Advocate

    I can tell if a coin has been cleaned or polished. Heck, I have a 20-80X dissection microscope for that. I think once you've seen enough though you can really tell by just holding it in the light. Like you said, it doesn't have the same lluster.

    Sometimes if it's done really well I need magnification though. I bought a 20c piece about a month ago I had to return because it had been cleaned but someone covered it up really nicely. Still, the surface looked "off." I could see the hairlines with a loupe.

    I was more curious how people would get the frosted effect and if these are indeed fakes. I don't think they are but someone who looked at it pointed out it was probably the way they used the lighting. I've definitely seen that done before to make coins look more proof like.

    It's both amazing and sad people go to this much trouble to do it though. From the way it sounds I'd have to see enough DMPL's to know for sure bit I'm pretty certain I can tell if the surfaces have been messed with. Definitely with coin in hand.
     
  11. Morgandude11

    Morgandude11 As long as it's Silver, I'm listening

    Mea culpa.well, coins are also sandblasted so as to make a surface more shiny. It is artificially shiny. Sorry to get your knickers in a twist. :)
     
  12. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I don't ever give specific answers that could help others duplicate the work of coin doctors, there's too much of it as it is. But sometimes it's painted on, and sometimes chemicals are used.

    Only an in hand exam by one with the requisite knowledge could answer that.
     
  13. RabidRick

    RabidRick Sardonic Devil's Advocate

    Sorry, yeah. You got me.

    That was my plan all along :V
     
  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Not you that I am worried about.
     
  15. xGAJx

    xGAJx Happy

    hopefully the TPG's are good at telling a fake DMPL morgan from a real one? *Crosses Fingers*
     
  16. Morgandude11

    Morgandude11 As long as it's Silver, I'm listening

    TPGs can blow grades, and miss some occasional coins that should have been "details" coins, but as far as the DMPL and PL designation, PCGS and NGC are tough on that particular one.
     
  17. Treashunt

    Treashunt The Other Frank


    Moi?

    Never.

    Too lazy
     
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