Follow up to my Paypal purchase of 4 - 10 oz Stackers

Again, we are back to that contract you signed and the guest did not sign. Remember? Secondly, contract law is generally in civil court. It only requires the "preponderance" of the evidence in civil court. i.e. 51%

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Ok well they would still face mountains when trying to prosecute me for something like this. And it's not likely that they are going to. If they wanted to they would've already.


So lets continue down this ethics road. You realize we have a specific section in this forum called Advertising. Now go open almost any thread under the auction tab and see where all of those sellers are pointedly soliciting offers outside of eBay. There are plenty of users here who make it known they give 'discounts' to forum members by waiving near 10-12% when going around eBay.

Would that not also implicate this whole entire site for allowing us to not only break ebays rules, but actually encouraging it from some members stand point. I know it's the whole well just because he's in the wrong doesn't mean you should do it. Only problem is I don't see anything wrong.

Also back to the 'guest' thing. It makes me input my password every time I log on to eBay only when I want to access my eBay page or place a bid. Would I not be a guest if I haven't logged in?

So essentially my contract is only valid when I've given my password for entrance into their playground. Any other time I would not be breaking their rules as I am not signed in and they again would have no way of knowing who or what I've done or if its even me using my computer to look at different items.

 

a person can search ebay with out an account. (no terms to be accepted) they just can't buy or sell with out logging in.

I think it goes both ways.
1) contacting a person through ebay to finalize a deal outside of ebay. (unethical )

2) seeing a coin on a dealer website (first) then checking to see if the same price is available in his ebay store. (so you can be better protected,and easier to track)
even though you know the seller will make less money. (unethical)

me personally, I am constantly searching Ebay, dealer websites,other auction houses.
when I find a coin I want I research the history of that coin. when it was last sold,for how much,average price sales for same grade,etc...
if that same coin is listed on multiple sites,thats not my problem. I will buy it from the site I feel more comfortable with.sometimes I rather buy from ebay, sometimes straight from the dealers website. and I don't think about share holders when I buy a coin for my personal collection.

 

Sorry, but that contract is in force until it is not. For some reason, you seem to think contracts/laws/regulations are only to be followed when you benefit. That may work for a while, but more often than not it will bite you in the end. Try asking Bernie Madoff.

 

Nothing wrong with listing on Cointalk. If you see their item outside ebay and contact them with info from anywhere except ebay.

It's really pretty simple. I get the feeling you haven't read the policies posted on ebay. It's not like they are controlling someone's outside business. Not at all. In fact they encourage business to list on ebay. But there are a few rules (simple rules) that need to be followed. Check them out for yourself sometime.

 

Come on now. Go look at some of those listings. There are plenty that say 'contact me here on CT for a reduced rate and only leave a link to their eBay store'. According to MedoraMan that should be illegal too, since the item is only found on eBay and you would have to go there to see the item in order to make the offer here.

This wasn't directed at you, I think we got everything worked out. I was specifically asking this to MedoraMan since he has a problem with any dealings where the coin originates in eBay but the deal is done outside of Ebays platform.

I think I understand the rules quite well at this point. I've read plenty that pertains to this situation and folks are stretching the goal posts REALLY far on both ends to make the story. I've been guilty of it too by suggesting these hypotheticals.

However they are rooted in real concerns and I want to see folks work out all the angles since they get so worked up we can conduct business outside of eBay.

So is it ethical for a person to list an item on eBay, promote it here on CT, solicit offers off of eBay even offering discounts, and sell the item outside of eBay.

MedoraMan says that's illegal, I see no wrongdoing as I do not believe eBay has that authority to police the Internet to that extent.

So where does that case stand?

 

Please explain to me how a 'contract' can be enforced when they would have no idea I was browsing as a guest? What if I was at the library and never logged into my account?

There is no contract until I hit 'submit' and access their site thru my personal portal. Until then I am not bound by their rules because I've committed no wrongdoing nor would they be able to track me if I used any other computer aside from my own.

It's silly really, they leave the loopholes open and take the chance of folks utilizing their system like I do from time to time. It's more harmful to their business to lock everything down and they know it, so there's only so much they can do to prevent it without loosing all of their business. If you locked the site from browsing without an account they wouldn't capture new users who stumbled onto an item they wanted. If they made all dealers remove contact info you would probably see them flood other sites where they could utilize their business info. The Internet is wide open and eBay only controls their site and I would argue they only control their site when you login to your account and reaffirm that you agree to their terms.

 

I think its the whole "don't cut in line because I didn't" thats upsetting people.

maybe its not the best idea to start a thread about doing a transaction outside of ebay.
(even though it doesn't bother me) it seems to strike a nerve with others.

I must say after reading all of this, I dislike ebay even more now. it reminded me of all there rules, policies, terms of conditions, inflated fees etc..

 

If you see an advertising for an item on Cointalk, but the advertiser gives you a link to an Ebay auction, that is a grey area. You did not use Ebay to find the coin for sale, but I believe its unfair of the seller to use Ebay as a free picture hosting site. As a buyer I say you do nothing wrong in buying that coin. The seller would be better served to simply have pics hosted at a pic hosting site and give you that link instead.

See the difference? Did you FIND THE COIN FOR SALE THROUGH EBAY? If yes, then you owe it to Ebay to buy it through Ebay and pay the commission.

It really is that simple, and all of your arguments are really only for your own sake, to salve your own cognitive dissonance over what you have done. If you found the item for sale on Ebay, case closed, you owe the money. Anything else is theft both by you and the seller accomplice.

 

I get the sense this is what's going on too. Because they didn't take advantage of it others shouldn't be allowed to. The problem is everyone has a different moral compass that points in many different directions.

I don't expect everyone to act like me, nor should I be expected to follow everyone else's example unless it rings true with my heart.

We just have differing opinions on this and like I said the policing should be left up to eBay.

I don't care that to certain members 'my word isn't worth anything' the people who HAVE done business transactions with me know I'm fair and try to maintain integrity. I don't worry about folks' opinions who haven't done anything for me, nor would I expect them to adhere to my advice like it was gospel either.

 

Saying we are upset because we "didn't take advantage" simply makes me sad.

I would have to say I agree with "everyone has a different moral compass" unfortunately.

Good day.

 

You make it seem black and white, but its not. Both my examples involved extenuating circumstances and that's what I want addressed. My ego has nothing to do with this because I don't feel any remorse or wrong doing in any of this. I DO want to see what people think about the situation though, if there is a hope for seeing the light then it needs to be discussed and presented in a most convincing manner.

I made a trade with a gentleman after seeing his coin on eBay. He left all of his contact info up there, info which I could've found without being a member of eBay and agreeing to their terms and I want to know how what I did was wrong. Especially when the seller ended up with 10 or 11 new coins to list on eBay and not only make up for my list fees but produce more income for eBay. I actually helped eBay in this instance.

My other example was by seeing the coin on eBay and contacting the member via CT with only having seen the coin on eBay. I asked for a lay-a-way plan so I could afford the coin. eBay doesn't do lay-a-way. However I did make payments through PayPal. Is this too also wrong?

I will say I value your opinion medoraman more than the others I've been arguing with so I am eager to hear your response.

 

That's sure been the way it has seemed, and not you so much specifically because I know more about where your moral compass lies, but these others have name called, bashed, and generally detracted from the overall experience by their hatred and have yet to answer all of my questions when I am just presenting the other side of the argument and standing up for my actions.

I can say I have the intestinal fortitude to stand by my actions and I am simply asking to be convinced that what I did was flat out wrong. Not gray area, but actually fraudulent and harmful to eBay.

How could a trade be harmful when eBay has the potential to make more off of what i traded. That benefits eBay and the shareholders.

 

That contract is absolutely valid 24/7/365 and has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you have logged in. If you actually bothered to read it, you might actually learn something all by yourself. It is a shame your ethics are not as solid as that contract.

 

No, it really is that black and white.

If you found the coin on ebay then you should have purchased it through ebay. That is their rules and the agreement you signed with them.

Right, again very clear. If you first saw the coin on ebay then you should purchase it through ebay per the agreement you made with them.

It's number 9 on their rules:

'√ You can't offer to buy items you found on eBay without using eBay.
Items bought outside of eBay aren't covered by our policies, and you aren't protected against fraud. Sellers have to follow the same rule, and if a seller offers to sell you something outside of eBay, don't accept the offer. For more information, see our rules for everyone.'

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/buyer-rules-overview.html

Key words for me is 'found on ebay'. There are multiple dealers I purchase coins from that have their own website and often list coins on ebay. If I find a coin by going to ebay from that seller then I have to buy it through ebay as I signed an agreement with ebay. If however I find a coin on their website then I can purchase it directly, even if it's listed on ebay.

You made the point repeatedly that some seller appear to be encouraging people to break this rule. Very true, but it does not make it right for you to break the rule. You have indicated that it would be hard for ebay to police this rule, again true and again irrelevant.

Lastly, to the point of 'nor should I be expected to follow everyone else's example unless it rings true with my heart.'. What your heart feels has no bearing on what is ethical and your justification is pure rationalization. Just think of the countless things your rationalization could be used to justify: murder, theft, genocide, the list goes on. It frankly scares me to think that line of thought did not die off in the 1960s.

 

I have stood by my actions through 3 threads now. I have been completely forth coming with all information I've presented. I've shown my methods, exactly what types of situations I am referring to and all any one has been able to respond with has either been Ebays own obscure rules on the situation, name calling, bashing, distracting, or plain out just saying 'you're wrong'.

I want to see something overwhelmingly convincing that anything 'illegal' was done. I am literally begging to be shown the error of my ways and staying stalwart through these responses.

I haven't been convinced yet.

As I see it right now I'm just utilizing a slight edge I have over folks by being savvy with eBay and expanding my collection interests.

Some people have a different 'edge'. Yours might be money where you can just be more heavy handed than the competition to get what you want. It might be knowledge that allows you to have the information that a certain coin is selling far below its actual value and you use that to your advantage. My edge is that I can see useful ways to utilize eBay to expand my collection, they are but a tool, a hammer, that I cab use in specific ways to reach my collecting goals.


Here's another ethics question for you, you're gonna love this one.

If you see a coin that is worth $1000+ everyday of the week and it has a price tag of $600 BIN on eBay and is a legit coin, would you buy it?

Be careful with that answer too. If you just buy it would you be taking advantage of both the seller and eBay? eBay lost out on an additional $400 worth of fees for you buying that coin at a known advantageous price. (So too did the shareholders miss out on money >gun to head?) And if that seller didn't know what they had, it would be taking advantage of them too.

Or does that fall under you're not obligated to help the ignorant?

As it stands, eBay is ignorant to my methods and utilization of their site.

I'm just trying to understand a little better, this is how we all grow by asking questions, learning from mistakes, etc.

 

Per ebay, '√ You can't offer to buy items you found on eBay without using eBay.
Items bought outside of eBay aren't covered by our policies, and you aren't protected against fraud. Sellers have to follow the same rule, and if a seller offers to sell you something outside of eBay, don't accept the offer. For more information, see our rules for everyone.'

Calling it obscure does not change the fact that you broke the rule. I have no idea if what you did was illegal as I am not a lawyer, but what you did is certainly unethical. There are many tests of ethical behavior, two favorites and easiests for me are the golden rule and the Kantian imperitive. Your actions fail both of them.

I would suggest you take the time to think through the logic of explicitly breaking a rule you agreed to because as it stands now all I see is someone digging their heels in. Take a deep breath and explain how breaking the rules you agreed to with ebay is not wrong? How would you feel if they broke their agreement to you after a transaction had been process, maybe by not backing their buyers protection for you after the fact?

Buying that coin does not go against the rules set out by ebay.

 

That wasn't an eBay rules question. That was an ethics question.

 

To answer your question, yes I would buy it. Buying that coin does not break the golden rule as I would be happy to have sold the coin for the price I wanted. It does not run up against the Kantian imerative, if it was universal that everyone would purchase the coin in your example there would be no harm, the buyer got a coin they wanted at a price they were happy with and the seller sold a coin at a price they were happy with. Everyone can do it and ebay will still exist tomorrow, sellers will still sell coins, and buyers will still buy coins, no harm. In fact I would argue that something similar is the basis for all of capitalism, the buyer thinks the product is worth more than the seller does, so a deal is done.

 

I'm getting beat up on ethics so I want to know what people would do in that situation. Actually I don't want to know as it was a rhetorical question. Most would take the deal. No doubt. They wouldn't feel bad for 'screwing eBay' out of $48 nor would they feel bad for the seller.

Does it make it wrong on an ethics level. Yes. But when it isn't brought to the lime light it's ok. I'm simply standing by my methods and getting railed for it. It's in the spotlight right now.

I just wanted to turn the table slightly and let everyone question their own ethics. That was the point of the question. Very few people would say the right thing to do is let the seller know their value is listed for 60% of its value and pay the difference on top of that. Not many people go that route, I doubt even some of our resident saints.